Appearance is Important

[Belly Love]

You are entitled to your opinion, but I am sorry that you feel this way. I am sorry for anyone who lives their life with these pre-set standards and refuses to look beyond them.

I used to be like that, and I am so glad I am not anymore.

It is sad because people like you are in the majority

Hmmmm.... I definitely see this as an insult and hypocritical. You say that you appreciate variety and uniqueness, but if someone sees beauty differently than you, you "feel sorry for them" and assume they "refuse to look beyond set standards".

I find it odd that many of you on here have made statements over and over about how "everyone is entitled to their opinion" and "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" yet, if anyone disagrees with your idea of beauty, you somehow feel your idea of beauty is OK and/or superior and they should feel shame for their preference. And then you ladies actually have the nerve to applaud each other for doing it!

A huge part of watching someone perform a dance, belly dance or otherwise, has A LOT to do with asthetics- and to not acknowledge this is just plain ignorant.

If you don't have a personal preference for watching a belly dancer lookswise during a performance, that's fine. It's also fine to prefer watching someone who looks a certain way. Rue never said that belly dancers have to look a certain way, she said that this is her personal preference. For anyone to say, "beauty is in the eye of the beholder" and then think someone should be felt sorry for because of what they find beautiful (which is a passive aggressive insult) is a flat out hypocrite!

 

[BellaBohemian]

You are entitled to your opinion, but I am sorry that you feel this way. I am sorry for anyone who lives their life with these pre-set standards and refuses to look beyond them. I used to be like that, and I am so glad I am not anymore.

It is sad because people like you are in the majority, and it is that majority that dictates who will be successful and who won't in this career.

I've come to terms with this reality, but it is still sad.

Hmmmm.... I definitely see this as an insult and hypocritical. You say that you appreciate variety and uniqueness, but if someone sees beauty differently than you, you "feel sorry for them" and assume they "refuse to look beyond set standards".

I have to agree, but not so much on the hypocricy (mainly because I have not been on the forums long enough to support or deny this). I too find the statement as a passive aggressive "insult". It may not have been intended as such, but I know if I where on the recieving end of that statment I would have felt slightly attacked as well.


Back to the actual conversation at hand:
I agree that I too have some standards I expect when I see other people dance for the public. I actually cannot stand watching children bellydance. But this is where I am a hypocrit, I think its awesome that someone so young wants to partake in such an old and beautiful art form. However, seeing bellydancing's origins I feel like they ought to wait until they are old enough to understand a womens body from their own experiance.

Other then that, I think one thing that I have seen that urks me is when a person doesn't represent their own age and size tastefully. I don't believe that a 50 year old woman should wear baby blue glittery eye shadow, glitter all over their face, baby pink lipstick, a top too small for them and an ill fitted skirt.

I think it has to be the total package. You can be an amazing dancer, but if you look like trash, I am not impressed. Just the same as you can walk out in a 2,000$ costume and have beautiful makeup, but if you snake arms for 6mins straight, again. . .not impressed.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

I think its awesome that someone so young wants to partake in such an old and beautiful art form. However, seeing bellydancing's origins I feel like they ought to wait until they are old enough to understand a womens body from their own experiance.

In its cultures of origin, bellydancing is learned as a child, in the community.

If you're talking about the story of ancient childbirth origins, or some kind of religious ritual, that's simply one opinion and it is not relevant to what bellydance is NOW, in the cultures that originated it.

Westerners "sexify" this dance in a far different way than Arabs do. I've NEVER seen an Arab man or woman make any kind of sexually-oriented reference at a child dancing. They know the difference.

 

[Belly Love]

Back to the actual conversation at hand:
I agree that I too have some standards I expect when I see other people dance for the public. I actually cannot stand watching children bellydance. But this is where I am a hypocrit, I think its awesome that someone so young wants to partake in such an old and beautiful art form. However, seeing bellydancing's origins I feel like they ought to wait until they are old enough to understand a womens body from their own experiance.

I don't think you're being a hypocrite. Just because you think it's great that children want to partake in an activity doesn't mean you have to like looking at it. I think it's great that people like to play football, but that doesn't make me want to watch it!

Other then that, I think one thing that I have seen that urks me is when a person doesn't represent their own age and size tastefully. I don't believe that a 50 year old woman should wear baby blue glittery eye shadow, glitter all over their face, baby pink lipstick, a top too small for them and an ill fitted skirt.

I think it has to be the total package.

I agree. And for everyone "the total package" is something different. What we look at visually is a huge part of why we enjoy watching a performance and a part of that is the way the performer looks- everybody has their preferences in what they like to look at- no one is right or wrong when it comes to what they find esthetically pleasing. I have my personal preferences as well when it comes to watching a belly dancer, but that doesn't necessarily mean there is something wrong with the ones I don't enjoy watching or that I don't see that every dancer has something to offer.

To tell someone that they should think all belly dancers look beautiful and should like looking at all dancers is absurd!!!

 

[BellaBohemian]

You are right, children where taught bellydance within the community. I never said they weren't.

If you're talking about the story of ancient childbirth origins, or some kind of religious ritual, that's simply one opinion and it is not relevant to what bellydance is NOW, in the cultures that originated it.

Perhaps its my ignorance, but I fail to see how these stories are opinion or even irrelevant. Over and over I've heard people say that you ought to know the history of the dance so you can understand how it became what it is now. I am not sure if there is hard evidance to support the stories of BD as a ritual for childbirth, either way it is a theory and its one that effects at least some dancers modernly.

And I never said anything about anyone making "any kind of sexually-oriented reference at a child dancing". I was quiet litterally talking about puberty. I already stated that Im rather hypocritical (and even bias) about this and its because of personal experiance. I was a figure skater for 10 years. I started when I was 5 years old. Then when my body changed, so did my ability to skate. Its a very different feeling and it completely changes how you do things.

I never said that a child should never ever bellydance, who am I to tell the world what to do? I'm sure there is some prodigy out there right now who can dance circles around me. I just personally feel they ought to wait longer. Nothing more.

 

[Belly Love]

For the most part, I've been keeping my personal preferences in what I like to see physically when it comes to a professional belly dancer to myself (mostly in fear of possibly hurting an insecure dancers feelings or having to go on and on defending my taste over things I never said, like I've had to in the past) but screw it - the way some of you have responded to this thread really pissed me off.

What I don't like while watching a pro performance:

1. Blonde hair. I don't know why... maybe because I like the look of a "classic" ME dancer where it's far more common to have dark hair.

2. Anything unkempt - chipped nails, uneven lipliner, dirty hair, wrinkled skirt...

3. Dresses. It's belly dance- I want to see the belly!

4. Short hair.

5. Neon/Bright colored outfits.

6. Sleves/arm bands (not sure what they are called).

7. Shiny fitted/mermaid skirts - often times it's the exact same fabric that strippers wear for their outfits. It looks cheap to me and it makes me think of strippers.

8. Overweight people. I don't think there is anything wrong with being overweight and a belly dancer, but I personally prefer to watch at someone who is slender. Other than I just flat out find it more visually appealing, I also think you can see belly/hip movements better.

9. Ladies with no hips and/or no butt. Besides that I just like curves, I also think they help to accentuate the dance.

10. Headbands worn across the forehead- they make me think of 80's aerobics and I always think their an outdated trend that someone has clung to from over 2 decades ago. Not sure if they are actually part of bd traditional costuming, but if so, then I own up to my theory being wrong!

This list is what I don't find visually appealing just when it comes to appearance. I didn't make a list including skill level, etc. because that's not what this thread is about and that's a whole different subject. So for those of you who want to combat my opinions with your moral superiority by saying things like, "It's more important to me to watch someone who has grace, blah blah blah" you can just stop right there.

And for those of you who want to make comments about superficiality, unless you have never put on makeup, styled your hair, bought clothes because of how they look, etc. don't even go there.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Perhaps its my ignorance, but I fail to see how these stories are opinion or even irrelevant. Over and over I've heard people say that you ought to know the history of the dance so you can understand how it became what it is now.

This is a really good point, and I'm glad you brought it up.

I think when MOST people say we need to know about the history of the dance, we're not talking about ancient history. We're talking about the expulsion of the Ghawazee from the metro areas, and understanding the place of the Awalim and Ghawazee. We're talking about the evolution of Mohammed Ali Street dancers, and the contributions of the Casino Opera dancers and the "movie star" dancers. It's really not about "history" as much as it is the cultural context.

I do think people should look at ancient Egyptian dances, and read books like Metin And's treatise on Turkish dance and La Meri's Total Education in Ethnic Dance to see what the historic context does to our interpretation of modern dances, and how we can place them in a proper religious and social context.

But as for the PRACTICAL APPLICATION of the dance, the historical context of Oriental dance isn't nearly as important to modern Egyptian and Turkish music and dance as it is in other ethnic dance forms which have survived through the ages based on strictly defined rules and forms (as outlined in texts like the Natya Shastra.)

I am not sure if there is hard evidance to support the stories of BD as a ritual for childbirth, either way it is a theory and its one that effects at least some dancers modernly.

Apart from promoting Dancing Through Pregnancy programs, I haven't seen any of the "childbirth ritual" histories affecting how we teach or what we teach, or even how it is performed. This is why I say it isn't relevant to the practical application of the dance.


BTW - you're allowed to not like children dancing But it is a part of the culture. But then nobody says we have to love everything about the culture either -- we just have to acknowledge it.

 

[Yame]

I find it funny that the same people who took offense to my lament and found it insulting are fine with picking apart people's appearaces on a public forum.
Hey, whatever floats your boat.

 

[Belly Love]

I find it funny that the same people who took offense to my lament and found it insulting are fine with picking apart people's appearaces on a public forum.
Hey, whatever floats your boat.

Trying to turn things around on me instead of owning up to your blantant hypocrisy... really?

Whose appearance am I picking apart?

Sharing my personal taste is not picking apart someone's appearance.

 

[Yame]

Trying to turn things around on me instead of owning up to your blantant hypocrisy... really?

Whose appearance am I picking apart?

Sharing my personal taste is not picking apart someone's appearance.

I don't have to try very hard to turn things around on you. You are doing a great job of that yourself!

But to address the hypocrisy argument, I am not sure what is hypocritical about embracing variety in the way people look and at the same time wishing more people could be accepting of the way they and others look instead of constantly finding fault. In fact, it is only a logical part of the philosphy. I think it is quite a stretch to call that hypocrisy, and I am not sure why this view makes you so angry.

 

[Belly Love]

I don't have to try very hard to turn things around on you. You are doing a great job of that yourself!

But to address the hypocrisy argument, I am not sure what is hypocritical about embracing variety in the way people look and at the same time wishing more people could be accepting of the way they and others look instead of constantly finding fault. In fact, it is only a logical part of the philosphy. I think it is quite a stretch to call that hypocrisy, and I am not sure why this view makes you so angry.

Uhm, sure. Anyway...

Your paragraph above is not at all what you originally said.

By the way, having a personal taste in something isn't the same thing as "finding fault".

 

[Yame]

Uhm, sure. Anyway...

Your paragraph above is not at all what you originally said.

By the way, having a personal taste in something isn't the same thing as "finding fault".

The "finding fault" part of the sentence has absolutely nothing to do with you or anything you said. In the paragraph you quoted, I was explaining my original position, which was stated long before you came into the picture.

No, the paragraph above isn't what I originally said. If I wanted to say what I originally said, I would copy and paste my first post, and that wouldn't be useful, would it? But it is what was meant by it originally.

In forums like these, we talk about belly dance and things related to it. We talk about music, culture, styles, etc. We talk about our tastes and preferences by posting about our favorite dancers. We talk about things we like (and sometimes about things we don't like) about people's styles and technique. We talk about aesthetics in the way of costuming, make-up, etc. If you think I don't care about these things, if you think I don't see the value in them, then you haven't read all my posts in this thread. However, I have already made my opinion very clear on this matter.

But, in case you haven't noticed, talking about people's physical appearance (the things that are an inherent part of them as opposed to make-up and grooming) is a pretty touchy subject. It's touchy because a lot of it, people can't change. Some things they can, through a lot of hard work or plastic surgery, but never completely. Other things they can't. Some of these things, they are already bombarded with by the media and other people around them. Some of these things, they are already insecure about.
It's different from criticizing something about the person's dance style, or custuming style, or make-up. These things are things people can make artistic choices about, and if they are comfortable with their choices, criticism shouldn't hurt them. If they are not comfortable with their choices, maybe the criticism will help. But for example when someone is sensitive about the fact that they are getting older, hearing certain comments will open up a wound when there is nothing they can do to make themselves younger.

I don't get personally offended when people say they don't like this or that physical trait on other people, even if I personally possess such a trait. However, there are other people who do, and I do not fault them. And it does make me sad that there are people who find it a good idea to perpetuate these views that certain looks are inferior.

When we put ourselves out there by performing in public, we should expect all kinds of reactions from our audiences. I am not arguing that. As I've said before, it's just reality and being a performer requires thick skin.

With that said, I don't like the way people focus so much on certain physical traits which they perceive to be flaws. I don't like it because I see the effects of it all around me, mostly of course among women. I see women and girls who can not go a 10-minute conversation without chastising their own bodies. I see women who are constantly on diets (harsh, extreme, and unhealthy ones), and/or who throw up every night to lose weight they don't need to lose. I see women who spend thousands of dollars to go under the knife just to fit into some mold other people expect from them. I see women gathered around gossip magazines, picking apart celebrities' most minor perceived flaws. It makes me sad.

How could I possibly think this is a positive outcome? How could I possibly encourage the sort of thinking that contributes to these things?

Perhaps you do not think any of this is a big deal. Perhaps you do not see how comments about people's appearances, even if generic and not directed at any specific individual, can contribute to these things. And if that is the case, we shall agree to disagree.

However, this is how I see things. So, when I see someone say something about how they don't like how such and such a physical trait looks, about how such and such a trait isn't "right" for belly dancers, I like to state my own philosophy and point of view. I have done so on other threads, as well.

As for preferences, most people have them. I do enjoy dancers young and old, thin and fat, short and tall, and anywhere in between, as long as they are good and have that "something else." But my biggest inspirations tend to be dancers who kind of look like me. I think it's part narcissism and partly because it's easier to picture myself and where I want to be if I can see someone with my body type dance very well. That isn't hard to find though, because I have a fairly typical look for a belly dancer. The empathetic side of me wishes there were more role models for belly dancers who don't have that look.

Ok, I think I wrote enough now.

 

[BellaBohemian]

Apart from promoting Dancing Through Pregnancy programs, I haven't seen any of the "childbirth ritual" histories affecting how we teach or what we teach, or even how it is performed. This is why I say it isn't relevant to the practical application of the dance.

Since for the most part we are at some sort of an agreement, the only thing I would like to address (mostly since we are now kind of off topic lol) is we actually have one troupe here near my city that draws their inspiration from these more goddess worship/child-birthing ritual histories. Rare as they may be, there are those out there. ^_^

 

[Belly Love]

No, the paragraph above isn't what I originally said. If I wanted to say what I originally said, I would copy and paste my first post, and that wouldn't be useful, would it? But it is what was meant by it originally.

My point was that what you're saying now is completely different from what you said in the post I was responding to. Completely different. And what I was responding to, was that you said that you felt sorry for someone's way of thinking and insulted them because they look at beauty differently than you do and then you said that we should embrace differences. So this person's idea of what they find attractive differs from what you see as attractive, but you don't think that their taste is okay. How do you not see the hypocrasy in that? And then on top of it, all these ladies applaud you for it.

Look, I understand and agree with a lot of what you just said. I just think there needs to be a balance between being thoughtful and aware of people's feelings and being able to voice one's honest opinion.

I realize weight is a very personal issue for many people, but it's not wrong of someone to prefer watching slender dancers. To tell someone that their thinking is wrong for feeling that way is judgemental and narrowminded. It's okay for people to prefer any body type they chose while watching a performance. This is not the same thing as personally insulting someone in regards to their looks.

For example, there is a huge difference between saying, "Belly dancers should be thin" and saying "I like to watch thin belly dancers". I think sometimes people on here are quick to be defensive for no reason and hear things that aren't actually being said out of insecurity. (I'm not saying you necessarily.)
I see this often on this forum and even when someone is called out for it, they never own up to it. For ladies who act so self-righteous, it's pretty immature.

*Sidenote: My reputation went down after posting on this... why do I feel like I'm in Jr. High? Let me guess, someone will come back with something politically correct and smart-a$$ but we all know it's because someone's feelings got hurt because I prefer to watch slender belly dancers...

 

[jahbie]

Originally Posted by BellaBohemian View Post

<< Other then that, I think one thing that I have seen that urks me is when a person doesn't represent their own age and size tastefully. I don't believe that a 50 year old woman should wear baby blue glittery eye shadow, glitter all over their face, baby pink lipstick, a top too small for them and an ill fitted skirt.

I think it has to be the total package.>>[/COLOR]


Can we take it then that you believe this would be OK for a 20yr old?

What you describe wouldn't look good on any dancer, old, young,fat or thin.
What you should have said is that it irks you when dancers don't dress in the way that YOU think is appropriate for their age and size.

 

[Belly Love]

Originally Posted by BellaBohemian View Post

<< Other then that, I think one thing that I have seen that urks me is when a person doesn't represent their own age and size tastefully. I don't believe that a 50 year old woman should wear baby blue glittery eye shadow, glitter all over their face, baby pink lipstick, a top too small for them and an ill fitted skirt.

I think it has to be the total package.>>[/COLOR]


Can we take it then that you believe this would be OK for a 20yr old?

What you describe wouldn't look good on any dancer, old, young,fat or thin.
What you should have said is that it irks you when dancers don't dress in the way that YOU think is appropriate for their age and size.

Seeing as She said, "I don't believe...", it's pretty much a given that it's what she thinks...

Anyway, I think glittery blue eyeshadow would looks awsome on most 20yr olds and not so good on most 50yr olds. It's just too youthful... not age appropriate. (Just to clarify- this would be my opinion... as is everything that is posted by me )

 

[jahbie]

Seeing as She said, "I don't believe...", it's pretty much a given that it's what she thinks...

Anyway, I think glittery blue eyeshadow would looks awsome on most 20yr olds and not so good on most 50yr olds. It's just too youthful... not age appropriate. (Just to clarify- this would be my opinion... as is everything that is posted by me )

Well, I'm open about the eyeshadow, I think some older people look OK with it.

If this post had read something like "I don't like to see a dancer wearing baby blue glittery eye shadow, glitter all over their face, baby pink lipstick, a top too small for them and an ill fitted skirt, I would have no problem with it. It's the intimation that this is perfectly OK if you're under 50 but not otherwise that annoys me.

 

[Yame]

My point was that what you're saying now is completely different from what you said in the post I was responding to. Completely different.

I got that that's your point. And my point was to say that the words are different, but not what was meant by them nor the reasoning behind them. You can argue that the words are different. Of course they are, otherwise I would just say the same thing again.

When you say that what I said before was "completely different," you are then trying to argue that I meant something "completely different" then than I do now. But how can you argue what I meant? Only I know what I meant because only I was the one who was typing it, and not you. You can not say "oh, what you MEANT was..." you can only tell me how my post came across to YOU. You can say "well, from your original post I get the impression that..." And that is all it is. If my post was "completely different" then in not merely the words, that's because it came across to you as a different meaning, not because it actually is so.

If you insist on reading other meanings into my post, you can go ahead and interpret it however you wish, but it won't change what I meant one bit.

And what I was responding to, was that you said that you felt sorry for someone's way of thinking and insulted them because they look at beauty differently than you do and then you said that we should embrace differences. So this person's idea of what they find attractive differs from what you see as attractive, but you don't think that their taste is okay. How do you not see the hypocrasy in that? And then on top of it, all these ladies applaud you for it.

Actually, what I said is that I view things differently. What I said is that "I don't like such and such a physical trait on a dancer" is not part of my philosophy. I said that this kind of thinking is very limiting (both for the people on the receiving end and for the people who think this way) and that therefore it is unfortunate that the original poster thinks this way, and unfortunate that most people would agree.

This is all it was. If you want to read "sad" and "sorry" as passive-aggressive insults, that is your prerogative. But what you think I meant doesn't change what I meant. Was I being critical? Yes, I was. We should all expect criticism from the opinions we put forth. However, I did not insult anybody, but even IF I had meant my post as an insult, I am not sure how being condescending towards a way of thinking is worse than being condescending about the way people look.

 

[Aniseteph]

I am so late to this party...

I wanted to rep Yame. Anyhoo...

I prefer to watch somone who is a good dancer/performer (duh). Appearance sets up expectations for the audience, but for me these days body type and age really don't give me any clues as to whether I'm going to see something awesome or utter pants, so I ignore it.

I don't want to be distracted by extremely skinny/fat/saggy/whatever bits, any more than I want to see badly fitting costumes, impending costume catastrophes or hear skipping CDs, because all that gets in the way of enjoying the dancing. Even extreme body types can look just fine in the right costume. (I am not saying it is great to be an unhealthy size here, just that you can do a lot to help your audience get past it and not spend the performance wondering about your weight).

I think the "we are all special" argument goes for haflas and class recitals/ dancer events only where it's partly a social thing. Yes, you are a special unique human being and we can celebrate your getting up there and going for it. But it does not not cut it for public performances; the only specialness that counts there is in your performance as a belly dancer, IMO.

 

[goddessyasaman]

I have read what everyone here has said and I agree a little here and there, I understand what "Yame" has said, she has a point a very good one, now as a Belly dancer I have watched lot's of dance perfomances, but I have never not watched a performer because they were Fat or Thin or to Old, I think that would be unfair, These are somethings people can not change, like a friend of mine can't gain weight, really she has to try really hard, and I know a woman who can't lose weight and stays heavy, along side a women that has hit the age of fifty, and another trying something unique. yet they all have one thing in common and that is this dance, should they not get a chance because they don't fit the "Norm" I can't recall who used that term here that may have been the starter of this thread, either way what is this "Norm" which I'm sure means normal.

That term is just...Lame, what is Normal, and do we all wish to be it? I for one have never been what people call "the norm" and never wished to be, I'm a Native american /Gothic/ christian/ Belly dancer , and I love who I am though others may not, I think that everyone should be who they are, I could not careless as to what others think of me, Yet there are people who do care and I wish I could teach them my Iron will.

Now I read "Belly love's" post about what she does not like in a belly dancers Appearance, and it's not the first time I have heard things like this, a person I know say's he does not like "blonde, white caucasian, or thin Belly dancers", his reasons as he states are because it does not look right to him as this dance is a Middle eastern dance, the thin and white caucasian women to him just don't look good doing it. My point is that people will feel the way they will feel, So here we have a belly dance performance and let's say Belly love and the person I know are both watching The Performer is dancing and she is Great, hit's all the moves in beat with the music and has a great stage presence, very nice costume and make up and hair, yet she is blonde,(which they both don't like) is white caucasian(which the guy does not like in a belly dancer) and she is not thin, yet she's not fat, but the woman may be to thin to him and to Belly love the women may be not thin enough, yet through all this did either really look at her performance or just what they like in a appearance for a belly dancer, this is a art form let us not forget that the dance matters more then what color/ race/ weight/ age you are.

People feel what they feel yet as a dancer you must rise above that and let your soul sing in your dance.