Something all men need to understand

[Tarik Sultan]

In a recent thread I made mention of the fact that the victimization of women is a universal problem. Some people initially thought that I was implying that the specific problem mentioned in the thread was not so bad etc.

Its hard because I am a man, but in a lot of ways I don't fit into the expected box, nor do I follow the program. I am a traitor in a sense because I take offense at the attitude of entitlement many men seem to have to invade women's peronal space, their ear space and say whatever they want whenever they want, to whomever hey want. I once was having a conversation with the UPS guy where I use to work when he stops to yell at a woman walking by, "DAMN, YOU GOT SOME BIG ASS TITS"! When she looks at him with disgust he replies, "You see, you can't even give a bitch a compliment"! That incident changed me forever. I can sympathise, but I can't empathise with what it must be like to have to endure this type of unwanted attention every second of every day. I ak women all the time how do you deal with it? They all say they try to tune it out. Am I crazy? Making a big deal out of nothing?

I saw this article today and just wondered, what can we do to educate our boys? I think the adults are a lost cause, but what can we do so that the next generations are more aware and sensitive to this kind of thing?

I debated whether or not to share this story.

I probably will not contribute much to this, but I think if people can have a forum to brainstorm, that is a good thing.

 

[Jane]

Tarik, I think you're doing the right thing by bringing it out into the open. The world won't become a better place if we all sit passively and do nothing. Recognizing and talking about it openly is the first step toward a solution. Kudos for bringing this up.

 

[Zorba]

Wow, what a story...

This is why I'm *VERY* careful about how I act around women I don't know. I really feel that most of our gender are at the very least *clueless* - and many are far worse. Being that I pretty much live in a "woman's world", I'm a bit more sensitive than most guys are to this kind of thing - but I still really don't have much of a clue...

I really don't have any interest in J. Random Woman that I might meet - regardless of how pretty she is - and unlike most men. I'm happily married, and I'm surrounded by beautiful women all the time - so I'm just not "normal". When I see a woman in public - my eyes automatically go to her ears and neck - I want to see what kind of jewelry she has on. Then I start evaluating her for Belly Dance potential - because I think everyone should be a Belly Dancer!

If I say anything at all to a "publicly encountered" woman, it will be to compliment her on her jewelry, her hair, or her skirt/clothes if same particularly caught my eye - and I *KEEP MOVING* so I'm not perceived as a threat. Most gals respond well to this - but a few do not. Either way, I'm still *moving* - at this point AWAY - so hopefully even the nervous ones will relax. I don't even look back...

Another story: I used to walk several blocks to catch a vanpool. I often encountered various women on my way to & from. I'd always tell them "Good Morning". I could tell that my large size, my long hair and beard, and probably my earrings made quite a few of them nervous - especially the older ones.

When I started wearing skirts in mundania, this all changed. Nothing else changed, just add a denim skirt or Utilikilt. This somehow gentled my appearance to these kind of gals - they no longer looked/acted nervous. *shrug*

I *really* try to bend over backwards to help women feel safe around me. This goes TRIPLE in a Belly Dance class - among other things I mention my wife EARLY and OFTEN (assuming she isn't there anyway).

 

[Zorba]

Of course there *is* a flip side - I've had more than my share of encounters with what I call "Feral Women" who make it abundantly clear what they want, and it isn't to borrow my earrings either!

 

[Mosaic]

WOW! that article is powerful. The poor girl. It's a longtime since I had to travel on public transport, but never have i encountered such frightening abuse. I am sure it happens here on night trains when the trains have few passengers. You hear newspaper/news reports of fights, stabbings or beatings in trains & stations so I'm sure abuse happens and probably doesn't always get reported. Also the beatings & stabbings are not always perpetrated by males, but females or mixed groups, I suspect the train stations here at night are chosen because they tend to be unpopulated at night, and these violent acts are carried out in front of CCT cameras, so they don't care if they are seen or ID'd. I really hate my 18 year old son travelling on night trains.

Thanks for sharing the article Tarik, I'm glad the young lady in question did decide to share it. Maybe it will allow other women to come forward & open this subject up to a wider investigation and also hopefully shame a few abusive, annoying types into changing their attitudes ... probably a forlorn hope.
~Mosaic

 

[Yame]

I usually ignore men on the streets. I have to. I have to walk like I don't see anybody, even though I do. You can always tell without even looking, when someone is staring at you or following you.

It has gotten to the point where I can't even make eye contact anymore, and if a man says "hi" to me I don't even respond because most of the time they aren't trying to be polite, they are just going to follow it up with some kind of comment. If I say "hi" they might think I'm interested.

I hate to have to be an asshole to every male stranger because I know not everyone is like that but from my experience, if they try to talk to me it's because they want something. It's never because they are being nice, although occasionally (almost never) they might be asking for directions.

I've been followed on multiple occasions, and it's not a fun experience. Multiple times I've had to run and hide. One time when I was with my mom, I was 16, multiple men followed us on their bikes, shouting things at us. Twice I've been followed out of buses when it was CLEARLY not the person's stop. I've been followed and harassed by men at concerts so many times I had to stop going to concerts without the company of large male friends years ago.

At clubs it's even worse... in some places men see you dancing with your female friends (not professionally... ironically I haven't had as many problems in a belly dance scenario) and so long as you don't have a man with you they assume you are available for anyone who wants. They will come to you and just start trying to touch you or rub on you. Last time I went to one I was literally pushing people off of me. It was scary leaving afterwards...

I'm lucky I always somehow got away... I always can somehow feel when someone is going to do something. Even if I don't look at them at all. I can feel them staring at me and I know they will try something... so I'm always prepared before it happens. I've never been caught off-guard. It's never been someone I didn't notice before or that I noticed but wouldn't have expected it from. It's always *that* person who has been staring at me all night. Maybe that's how I've been able to get away.

 

[Darshiva]

I've never experienced anything like that. But then again I was quite shy as a kid, so whenever anyone asked me what I was reading, I'd just flip the book up so they could figure it out for themselves and pop it back down & get right back to reading. Strangely enough, people seem to figure out from that behaviour that you're pretty engrossed in your book.

I have had male-type people instigate conversations with me on public transport, but I don't see the issue with that. Honestly I've started as many conversations as I've had started with me, and I've never had anyone take offense to 'I'm fine thanks but I'm not really feeling chatty right now'. Maybe I've just been incredibly lucky.

I do not condone the actions of ANY of the males in the story, however if she had used the book-flip technique for the first guys instead of verbally engaging, they probably would have just ignored her & found someone else to talk to or just talked loudly & obnoxiously about their weekend plans. The second guy, well that's just a random encounter with crazy. No escaping that one unscathed and I think she handled it pretty well considering.

 

[da Sage]

I do not condone the actions of ANY of the males in the story, however if she had used the book-flip technique for the first guys instead of verbally engaging, they probably would have just ignored her & found someone else to talk to or just talked loudly & obnoxiously about their weekend plans. The second guy, well that's just a random encounter with crazy. No escaping that one unscathed and I think she handled it pretty well considering.

I disagree. If' she'd done the book-flip, I don't think they would have walked. They wanted a female audience. They wanted to "get to" someone. I personally think they would have continued to engage.

The question is, why do men feel that they are entitled to female attention? It seems to happen much more often than the other way around.

 

[Darshiva]

Might be different for different locations but I've no recollection of the book flip ever being taken as an invitation to further conversation. Or perhaps I was actually so engrossed in the book that post-flip I didn't notice anything the people doing the interacting got up to.

 

[Amulya]

I think it also makes a difference where in a train or bus you are, each country and even each city is different. In Holland there used to be loads of scary teenagers, but here they seem to be more polite. I have encountered really scary things in trains in Holland, but here I haven't been alone much in trains and busses so can't say what it is like here. I heard that it's scarier in the country side here for women.

I think men sometimes encounter the equivalent when they are cornered by a group of other men who threaten them, it would feel quite the same.

 

[M'Lady Caija]

Thats some story and I'm not surprised at all. There's men and young boys thinking a girl or a woman is fair game whenever she's alone.

I've had my share of creeps on busses, trains and even in the city. Men coming to close into my personal sphere, wants to talk and if you turn them away they get foul mouthed and threatening.

I've done the book thing many times, sometimes it works. I've been stalked, asked out for dates, asked if I'd do this and that for money, been indirectly threathened and so on... But since I've had the fair share of assholes.

When I was about 14 years old I was very active in the LARP-community and had posted my phonenumber on a site to get to know more people in my surroundings. One day a man called, heavily breathing in the phone started to ask med what I was wearing and so on and then I told him to knock it off and I'm hanging up. Then he started to threathen me for real "if you hangup I'm gonna kill your family" I think that thing was the thing I needed to understand the world is an awful place and there will allways be pople trying to get things from you that you don't want to give'em.

I still go by the buss all alone, I ride the train but I also know that IF someone would try to hurt me, I'll do my absolutely best taking as much of them with me down. I also carry both skirts and pants underneath, having books in my purse, I'm not carrying a knife anymore. But I often wear knitting needles ^^ They're pretty intimidating. 10" knitting needle into a gut isn't to comfy I'd think. And when looking at it, the times I actually knit the only ones approaching me are children asking what I'm doing or older ladies complaining about their arthritis making them unable to knit anylonger....

I have the confidence that I'd manage bad situations. I used to practice martial arts such as aikido, I'm a viking reenactor and also practice swordsfighting, axefighting and knifefighting. I'm confident that I'm not the one taking all the damage. I know my way around weapons and I also know that as long as I remain calm I'm not the one making all the mistakes. rage, anger, lust and whatever is allways clouding a predators mind.

But even if I'm prepared with or without a knitting needle I know that if there's more than one I'm probably toast. But still, you can as a woman with confidence and knowledge win. And with a fair amount of skin peels from the predators face under your nails you have some DNA to match later on

It's really rare to meet a gentleman nowadays. I allways give a second chance. As Zorba said, he is a tall, big and dark man with beard and long hair. That's frightening for many people, not for me. Most men I know is tall, large, looking like grizzly bears, have huge beards and are the nicest cuddliest persons I know. ^^

I'm not sure what was my point with this rambling.... But I think it was that you as a woman have a responsibility for yourself. Know your limitations, what would you do to ensure the caption of the one assaulted you if it came to physical assault and just not verbal. I think the woman in the text did right, she kept a strong position and didn't let herself move to a weak position.

Men are in most cases stronger than women. But I also want to lift the fact that there's a lot of guys being harassed as well on metros, busses and so on. By other men and even women.

People in this world has lost their perspective.... that makes me sad. Noone care for their fellow people.

Just remembered a thing happened when I was about 11 years old. My parents are divorced and I was sent by train back and forth between the cities. The ride took about 35 minutes. And I was sitting across a grandmother and her grandchild. Maybee 8 years old and they got ready to have some cookies and they asked if i wanted one. That has never happened since then!

Sorry still rambling.... :S

 

[Munniko]

Thank you for sharing the article in fact I just posted it to all my friends on Facebook. It also made me wonder why men do feel like they are entitled to not only female attention, but if they so decide the female herself.

Now I have no problem talking with random strangers, I think this is due to working in retail so long, but I'm getting sick of all the hoops I've had to jump through in order to safely back myself out of the conversation without being called some nasty word. I'm pretty sure I've used any male friend I've had a picture of on my ipod/phone as my imaginary boyfriend that I'm desperately in love with, I think the funniest one was using my Sikh friend and I claimed I was converting to that religion so I was going to start wearing the turban (even though if I did convert I wouldn't be able to *sigh*)

I feel old or backwards saying this, but I at this point have started blaming popular culture for this and painting a picture of situations like this working in the males favor.

 

[mahsati_janan]

The book flip definitely doesn't always work. It was my go-to as well until a guy grabbed the book from my hand and tore it in half for my 'rudeness' when he 'just wanted to talk.'

I have had awful experiences with this in the past. Once, just walking from my work to my car (a few blocks) at about dusk, when I ignored a cat-caller he pulled a knife and ran at me. I am pretty fast, thankfully. I reported it to the police, but they couldn't do anything about it. Even just last night leaving dance class, two students and I were yelled at from a parked car. We all ignored it and thankfully that's all they did. It doesn't always work out that way.

It can be hard for men (or women who haven't experienced it) to understand how frightening it can be. You can never know which random stranger will flip from 'seeming ok guy' to 'raging attacker' when you don't give them the attention they want. When you are alone and it is a group, it is even more worrisome because groups can feed on each other's energy until you aren't a person at all, just a group target they are using to bond with each other...by being mean, nasty, and sometimes dangerous.

Thanks for posting the link to this woman's story. It happens a lot, but many guys don't see it. I think with the good guys, it is that they wouldn't think of it, their friends wouldn't dare do it in front of them, and most random strangers won't harass a woman when she is out with a man (though some will). I think that hides it a bit from good guys so they don't realize how prevalent it can be.

 

[Yame]

I do not condone the actions of ANY of the males in the story, however if she had used the book-flip technique for the first guys instead of verbally engaging, they probably would have just ignored her & found someone else to talk to or just talked loudly & obnoxiously about their weekend plans.

I don't buy that. My approach is also to ignore, but it doesn't always work. I don't think it would have worked with those guys.

 

[Ariadne]

I've never experienced anything like that. But then again I was quite shy as a kid, so whenever anyone asked me what I was reading, I'd just flip the book up so they could figure it out for themselves and pop it back down & get right back to reading. Strangely enough, people seem to figure out from that behaviour that you're pretty engrossed in your book.

I have had male-type people instigate conversations with me on public transport, but I don't see the issue with that. Honestly I've started as many conversations as I've had started with me, and I've never had anyone take offense to 'I'm fine thanks but I'm not really feeling chatty right now'. Maybe I've just been incredibly lucky.

My standard was to flip up the cover, look a it myself, tell them the name, and then go back to reading. I acknowledged their existence without engaging in an actual conversation. Sometimes I would get a "so is it a good book" or some variation and I would just say yes or uh-huh and keep reading and the conversation would be pretty much over. Sometimes I would put it up and talk to them and have a nice conversation instead. I actually like to read though so if I didn't it was because I really did want to read it. People can tell when you're being honest even if your not speaking.

I don't think it's just luck. Being polite goes a long way to diffusing potentially tense situations. The "usual routine" in the story of responding "loudly and firmly that I wanted to be left alone" can do exactly the opposite. It's treating anyone who talks to you as guilty beforehand and no one likes that especially if they really are jerks.

I disagree. If' she'd done the book-flip, I don't think they would have walked. They wanted a female audience. They wanted to "get to" someone. I personally think they would have continued to engage.

Yes but all they wanted to do was "get to" someone, they were otherwise harmless. In my experience given a minute or two and no reason the be offended they will usually get bored and find something else to do.

The book flip definitely doesn't always work. It was my go-to as well until a guy grabbed the book from my hand and tore it in half for my 'rudeness' when he 'just wanted to talk.'

No technique works all the time and when you run into the people (male or female) that have real issues it's how you handle it when it doesn't work that can make all the difference. I try to smile, keep things calm, and say as little as possible until I can exit the situation. It doesn't always work but I've always come out of it physically unharmed (knock on wood) even if shook up, sometimes for days. I don't let it permanently affect my attitude towards others. I just think of all the great people I wouldn't have meet if I had assumed they were dirt just because of appearances. I also don't think it's just women who have to put up with this. People who want to harass someone will latch on to anyone that appears vulnerable to them.

As totally an aside, there are advantages to being around people who do historical reenacting. I love how men who've studied proper gentlemanly or chivalric behavior react to those "ones". Even if they're the type to crack dirty jokes all day and love nothing more then a good flirt the instant someone tries to impose on any woman in their presence their code of honor rears it's head quite vocally. I have to agree with Munniko that popular culture is at fault. Not for teaching them that it works in their favor but for NOT teaching men to be honorable.

 

[M'Lady Caija]

As totally an aside, there are advantages to being around people who do historical reenacting. I love how men who've studied proper gentlemanly or chivalric behavior react to those "ones". Even if they're the type to crack dirty jokes all day and love nothing more then a good flirt the instant someone tries to impose on any woman in their presence their code of honor rears it's head quite vocally. I have to agree with Munniko that popular culture is at fault. Not for teaching them that it works in their favor but for NOT teaching men to be honorable.

I totally agree on this matter.

Most reenactors have a different way to move and feel overall. They have a sense of chivalry even if they reconstruct US civil war, Viking, medieval or world war 2. They often have this way around others and women that makes you feel safe. a little bit of "No worries ma'm I'll see to it" and how frustrated/protective they get when a civilian dork makes passes at a lady in his group...


Honour is something that has been forgotten, all that matters is the needs of yourself and need to feel power in some way. When harrassing someone it's to me still a way to find power and a upper hand to feel control over a situation making someone else feeling as bad as you felt once etc.

A friend of mine has a saying "Strength through honour" he keeps his honour in high regard, and as long as he manage to keep his honour, protect the weeker, help when he can etc he'll continue to build his strength by being honourable. and that's rare.

For 100 years ago this would probably never happened.

 

[Sophia Maria]

I disagree. If' she'd done the book-flip, I don't think they would have walked. They wanted a female audience. They wanted to "get to" someone. I personally think they would have continued to engage.

Yep. With those types of personalities, I would hope that the ignore tactic would work, but I really wouldn't count on it. I actually don't tend to ignore people who approach me, but of course my reaction depends on each situation and how much risk I can judge I'm in.

I've never really had to deal with this type of situation, and I think that's just because I've been incredibly lucky. Most of my female friends have stories about getting unwanted advances / almost being assaulted / actually getting assaulted in a verbal or physical manner.

But even the little things I've experienced are indicative of the bigger problems. Someone who feels entitled to drive by me slowly and scream "HEY, HEY GIRL! NICE ASS!" (which has not happened infrequently) seems to feel absolutely comfortable with disrespecting the body and privacy of a woman.

 

[Munniko]

But even the little things I've experienced are indicative of the bigger problems. Someone who feels entitled to drive by me slowly and scream "HEY, HEY GIRL! NICE ASS!" (which has not happened infrequently) seems to feel absolutely comfortable with disrespecting the body and privacy of a woman.

Here is something a little off topic I've always wondered but how do they manage to yell that out off a relatively fast (25 mph) moving vehicle. That is a long phrase for a someone to yell out in a limited amount of time, yet it always is perfectly enunciated

But back on topic, I wonder if there were a way to really instill these values like chivalry back into the youth of today. It seems like a tough job because well, there are so many things to fight against and eventually I know I just start getting mad and internally ranting like a crazy at how youth these days have no respect for anything, even though I'm still considered relatively young.

 

[Amulya]

It's not always men that are the random attackers. I have once been so lucky to be attacked in mid day in a park in the middle of town straight in view of everybody (so yes I had two witnesses) and this was a random father of two kids. My friend had been attacked by him as well (he lived in the neighbourhood) but in her case his wife was doing the attacking as well.... I have no idea what was wrong with these people but it does show it's not always only men and it isn't always about sexual attention.
(he has never been arrested even though I reported it. Apparently they need 3 reports of attacks before they arrest the person, in Holland that was)

But back on topic: I think naturally we women are more cautious because in general men are physically stronger so we have to watch out. I don't think its a majority of men that behave this way, but you only need a few to cause a major problem in society. I wonder how insecure these idiots are that they feel they have to force women to give them attention...

I feel old or backwards saying this, but I at this point have started blaming popular culture for this and painting a picture of situations like this working in the males favor.

I have heard more people saying this. A friend of mine calls it 'rape culture' (I think that is a term used on the internet for this) That's a bit harsh, but it refers to certain tendencies in today's culture.

 

[Zorba]

As Zorba said, he is a tall, big and dark man with beard and long hair. That's frightening for many people, not for me.

Actually, I'm not "dark"!

But reading other posts from my dance sisters here is an awakening - I had no idea women had it that bad.

If I were in a situation that put me at this kind of risk on even an occasional basis, I'd get a CCW permit, and learn how to shoot VERY well and VERY fast.

If I couldn't get a CCW permit, I'd still carry - "Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6".

I was *so* very glad when I grew up and left the "animals" our schools are full of, behind. Seems like women have to contend with animals their entire lives - I had no idea.

I am VERY shocked, and ashamed of my gender.