Aniseteph

Quite. And if you must do it cos it's your artistic freedom of expression, don't be surprised if you look an idiot and/or offend, and are hauled up for it. It's not just the people whose culture you are messing with, it's other dancers who resent the fact that it reflects on all of us.

I'm with Maria Aya and summerdance on this too -
I get the maqam bit, but how is Kamikaze a twist on anything Middle Eastern? I am intrigued. To me it just says Japanese suicide missions crashing planes into warships in the Pacific in WW2 - surely not the impression they were going for.

firshania

Am I the only one here who listen to each bellydancers? Even the most experimented, the most popular, the biggest star... Did you notice that they don't feel, understand and interprate bellydance the same way? Egyptian, libanese, turkish, american, Franch, Australian, English.... and individually, the "feeling" of bellydance is different to each person who dance it. Don't you notice that? Am I the only one who heard so many version of this famous "feeling" of bellydance?

I am certainly not ignorant (thanks for keeping respectuous) and I know so well that bellydancing is not just about shaking our hips. I am learning bellydance, I work very hard and I don't just shake my hips. There is a lot of technic and a lot to learn about the different moves formo the different culture. Wich moves were created when, what style is it, who dance it, where this all come from. Don't you dare calling me an ignorant just because I don't see a performance the same way you do.

And the fact is : we don't know the origin of bellydance, we don't know wich culture create it at first, we don't even know what bellydance was at the very begining.

And I'm not saying that we can don anything in the name of art. Everything is not bellydance. This comedy was not a traditionnal egyptian balady (I think it's obvious to everybody here). You want a name to that dance? Fantasy, fusion, contempory bellydance. Name it the way you want, there is bellydance moves (and good ones, they were not mess up), and I see the sharki "feeling" at the end when they were really dancing bellydance. So there is bellydance in it and if you prefer, I can say it is inspired by bellydance. Do you like that?

I don't know why it's so important to name it and if we don't, then we don't like it. Nah!

The moves were good, it was vreative, entertainig, it matched the music, there were technic and synchronism. The only little thing that you all don't like... is the song. Because, you decide that you don't want anyone to touch because it is a beautifull song? This is something I will never understand. If an arab will make a comedy on a song that I find beautifull even if this song as nothing to do with his comedy (because maybe he don't know what it says...) I won't jump and be offend. Why should we accept this attitude? Just because it's a culture we should accept it AND do the same thing as a bellydancer? Of course not! Are we human or stupid robot who copy other culture without thinking?

We don't borrow a dance. We learn it, we understand and only then! we can adapt it to ourself and be creative. But I don't take this dance to anybody. An arab decided to learn me how to dance her way and I'm going tonight to take lessons from her. She dance in a traditionnal way, she loves Oum Kalthoum and she told me that arab people don't like when we dance on it without understanding it. But she also told me that we don't dance only for arab in Canada. Because there is only one or two of them in the audience. So we must adapt our dance to the rest of the audience that are biggest part. She also tells her students in each class that we shouldn't just copy and find our style.

And I saw so much "bellydancers" who are on the front page of bellydances magazine, who are teaching for a long time and dancing for years that don't even know to do the shimmy properly and they come to me and say "the feeling is the most important!". I really don't take this argument seriously. So few bellydancers really know to dance no matter their style (traditionnal, modern or fusion) and this offends me. This is offending but I don't understand why... Bellydancers prefer to be offend because of a song, and being so gentle and sweet with this fakes that I just think I will continue to think my way, work hard and seriously, learn as much as I can, and thinking by myself without caring about them.

So don't call me ignorant. I'm not. I'm one of the few who really respect this dance by not being a professionnal bellydancer because I'm not so bad and by not teaching it because I dance it for more then a year. This is not because I like a comedy with an Oum Kalthoum song that I'm ignorant.

I respect people who don't like the performance, I respect the reasons too even if I don't think like them. But I don't call them idiot or ignorant and I would like to have the same respect I give to you.

I would really like to express myself better but I'm not good in english. So my argument are limited... You seem to think I'm just another stupid young lady who think she can be professionnal without taking serious lessons and without knowing a thing about bellydance, maybe because I can't tell you everything I want... But believe me. I'm not.

Moon

I'm not entirely sure about this, but I thought the feeling and interpretation was quite similar for different cultures in which bellydance originated, but each individual has a different dance style.

But we do know what it is now and we do know who Um Khalsoum is now and what she means to a lot of people.

Fusion or fantasy dance inspired by bellydance sounds like a good name to me.

It's important so the audience will see and learn about what you're doing.

I don't think it matched the music. It matched the rhythm and the melody, yes, but it did not match the lyrics and feeling of the song. Using a version without lyrics doesn't mean the lyrics do not exist and you can ignore them.

I think it's important the audience knows what you're doing on stage. Just because they're not Arabs doesn't mean you don't have to tell them what bellydance is about and show either the right thing or explain what you're doing is not real bellydance, but you're own creation.

If an audience doesn't know Um Khalsoum, they're allowed to know if was a famous, extremely popular singer and it is important to interpret her songs the right way. Why make them think you can do anything with a song and it doesn't have a specific meaning?

Aniseteph

... which completely gets in the way of appreciating the dancing for anyone in the audience who knows the music.

On this level it is not about whether Oum Koulsoum is regarded as sacred, or about whether you label it as bellydance, fusion or fantasy, or pushing artistic boundaries , or just a bit of fun.

The music has significance for some of the audience, and either the creator of the piece didn't know this, or knew but thought their Art would transcend that, or knew and didn't care what that section of the audience thought.

Aziyade

I'm not really taking sides on this debate, but you're bringing up some interesting points. I can't quite decide if I think there is ONE universal "feeling" to Egyptian dance, or if it has changed through the years.

Personally, I think the Egyptians interpret the music in a very similar way. But I don't know if that's because their dance movement stems from their body language, or if they just grew up watching people move that way and imitated it, or just why exactly they seem to interpret the music the same way.

I think there is a definite Egyptian WAY of dancing, that is different from Turkish or Lebanese or American -- but I also don't know if that is because the music each culture had to dance to was different. ???

Do you see the similarities in the Egyptian dancers? Do you see that they dance in a different fashion that Americans, for instance -- or do you think it's more that each dancer has her own individual style? I'm just curious.


You know, I think putting it this way makes SO MUCH more sense, especially when we're talking about the ultra-modern fusion dances. My own dancing is more "folk dance inspired" some times. I like that phrase. I'm going to keep it


I don't know if this is a uniquely American thing, but we sort of enjoy labels. We like to know exactly what we're seeing. Maybe it's just that Americans don't like surprises. ?? I know PERSONALLY that if I see a dance labeled "fusion" or "experimental" I'm going to be more "tolerant" (I guess that's the way to phrase it?) of any weirdness, or any kind of behavior that strays from what I might have expected if it were just advertised as a "belly dance performance."


I'm not sure if I'd say we don't want to TOUCH the song -- but I think the majority of us would probably say the songs should be treated with respect. Even though they aren't OUR songs, we have Arab friends and loved ones, and THEY respect the songs, and so out of respect to THEM, we also have respect for the songs.

I think a very similar metaphor is the Call To Prayer. The Call itself doesn't have any significance to me because I am not Muslim. But it has a special meaning to my Muslim friends, and out of respect to them, I have respect for that song.

Or put another way -- I may not particularly LIKE my mother-in-law, but she's my husband's mother, and so I have respect for her because HE respects her. (Although actually my MIL is a sweetheart and I just love her.)

This, I believe, is honestly the modern American approach. We are often very ultra sensitive to everyone's feelings, and try to be politically and socially "correct" in our speech. There is a great sense of guilt among Americans -- guilt over being born in a wealthy nation, guilt over having good health, guilt over knowing that our ancestors slaughtered Native Americans, imprisoned Japanese-Americans, and sold Africans as slaves, etc.

But it's not JUST guilt and oversensitivity that drives us to mimic the practices and feelings of other cultures. I know I personally am just fascinated by Egypt and Spain and Morocco, and so I try to eat what they eat, I read their authors and watch their movies, and when I can I buy home furnishings from there. All that is driven by the desire to BELONG to that culture that I am so enamored by.

Because I'm so in love with the Egyptian dance/music scene, I want to do what THEY do, and if that involves learning the music and the song lyrics and sharing THEIR respect for certain authors/singers/composers, well then I do it. It makes me feel more a part of their culture and their world -- and I like their world.

More to the point, I think that after reading the lyrics to many of Om Kalsoum's songs, they just wouldn't make sense if interpreted in too bizarre a fashion. I can't imagine our song "Amazing Grace" being the song you would choose for a comedy dance routine. Where in Amazing Grace is there the inspiration for comedy? Irony maybe, and sarcasm maybe, but comedy?

The reverse applies too. If a ballet company tried to set a serious ballet to the song "Fishheads" I'd have to wonder what they were smoking.


Some people will agree with this statement.
Some people will not agree with this statement.

You can argue all day and you won't change any minds, I don't think, nor will they change yours. Was it Isadora Duncan who said no movement was "owned" -- it was merely rediscovered (?) We've been debating this for ages, in the dance world.

Some people see bellydance as an ethnic dance. Probably most of the forum members here would say it is an ethnic dance, (I think? We've talked about this before.) If it's an ethnic dance, then we borrow it, since it's not our ethnicity. THAT is where we're coming from. If your viewpoint is different, obviously you're probably not going to agree with us, or you'll have trouble understanding that viewpoint.


[quote]She dance in a traditionnal way, she loves Oum Kalthoum and she told me that arab people don't like when we dance on it without understanding it.[/quote

Exactly. The thing with ME personally is that when I start reading the lyrics, I don't WANT to do anything weird or fusion with them because I think they just SCREAM for a certain kind of movement and a certain kind of interpretation. And that happens to be what I've seen Sohair Zaki and Lucy do, rather than Rachel Brice or Aziza or Tulay Karaca.

I think I know what she's talking about, but I don't think we need to do THAT much adapting. There's a huge debate on the "dumbing down" of Egyptian dance to fit American audience desires. (I assume it's similar with Canadians.) The feeling is that Americans can't or won't sit through a 2-hour show of Egyptian bellydance. I don't know if this is true or not. I've heard arguments on both sides, and I'm still unsure.


Yes, I agree. But copying/imitation is how artists in other art forms learn their craft. You paint what your instructor paints. You write a story in the style of Updike. You learn to play guitar by listening to other guitarists and copying their riffs. Once you have the CRAFT down, and you're not struggling with technique, THEN the YOU starts to come out in your work. Artists will tell you of their "influences" -- which is a nice word for the people they copied as young craftsmen.

Okay here I have to totally agree with you. Feeling without technique? Well, we see that every week on American Idol.

I used to hear drummers and musicians criticize a certain high-profile Star of bellydance, saying "oh she's beautiful and she has so much feeling in her eyes, but she can't dance."

Nobody ever tells piano players, "Oh the FEELING is what's important. The notes won't matter if the FEELING is there."

Sure there are dancers who have technique and no feeling. I don't like watching them either. But I do view it as a 50/50 marriage -- technique and feeling are BOTH needed.


Your English is fine!! Don't worry -- we understand what you're saying. We just may not agree with it is all