Sadie... hmmmm...

Darshiva

Moderator
Please take care not to drag a person's life (external to bellydance) into their bellydance career. It is a particularly vulgar part of humanity that we decide to drag a person's name through the mud because they do something that we disagree with, or in some cases wish we had the nerve to do ourselves. (I am not implying that is the case here)

While we may disagree strongly with the way Sadie represents bellydance in public, it is lacking in decorum to continually drag her name through the mud over something that is completely irrelevant to her career. Should I start worrying that someone is going to find an ex of mine and publish details of my wild uni days? No? If not, how is that any different to what is being said here?
 

Kashmir

New member
Should I start worrying that someone is going to find an ex of mine and publish details of my wild uni days? No? If not, how is that any different to what is being said here?
Because what is being discussed are things that she made happen and put into the public sphere. These are not youthful indiscretions but career moves and publicity seeking.
 

Darshiva

Moderator
Having seen the video in question I would very strongly disagree. The clip I saw made no mention of bellydance at all, it was just a pretty young thing being flirty with a cab driver.

Now can we please stop dragging her name through the mud and get back to discussing her performances?
 

Yame

New member
Nice rant. None of it addresses the fact that it's neither personal nor private once it is published with her consent,
Actually what I made was a coherent case for why the Taxicab Confessions video is irrelevant, not a "rant." And I did address all of the above. That video is not private in the sense that it was aired publicly on TV, but it is personal in the sense that it's about her personal life and not her professional (belly dance) life. Have I made myself clear now, or are you going to continue to argue semantics?

or that lines were already drawn by jjj between BD and sexuality because of a reference to it, or that she has deliberately created a sexually charged/adult entertainment image for the general public.
The lines that were drawn by jjj were drawn because people like you and others continuously bring the Taxicab video out of oblivion to prove some sort of point and/or to drag Sadie's reputation into the mud. You still have not addressed this point. You still have not addressed the fact that this video wasn't some widely known video Sadie is out there publicizing, it's a video some anonymous belly dancer posted and belly dancers themselves have continuously used to shame Sadie. If you are so worried about people coming to negative conclusions about belly dance based on this completely unrelated video, how can you justify the fact that you keep introducing people to this video who otherwise would not have seen it and drawn such conclusions?
If you feel Sadie deliberately creates a sexually charged belly dance image, then you should only be using her belly dance performances, videos, etc to prove that point. Why do you need to bring something that is unrelated to belly dance into the picture?

As I said before would anyone care if it was all there was? You can rant all you want about the possibility of it being a youthful "mistake" on her part and call those who don't respect her names or accuse us of publicly shaming her but none of that changes the fact that she encouraged the image.
If no one would care if that's all there was, then why bring it up in the first place? If it wouldn't matter if that's all there was, why does it matter now? Are the rap video and the Rakkasah videos not enough for you to make your point? Why not? What's so appalling and objectionable about the Taxicab video? What does Taxicab have to do with the image she tries to portray of herself as a belly dancer? Who knows if she was even a belly dancer at that point? If the Taxicab video had anything to do with the image she's trying to portray of herself as a belly dancer, wouldn't she have mentioned belly dance in it? Wouldn't she be the one publicizing it, and not the dancers who are trying to bring her down?

And excuse me, but where on any of these posts have I called anyone names?
 
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gisela

Super Moderator
I don't understand the cirque de soleil reference. Is there another cirque de soleil that I'm not aware of that has explicit adult material in their performance? Or have they changed so much from earlier days? I watched them when I was 12 and it was perfectly decent and amazing.
 

Yame

New member
I don't understand the cirque de soleil reference. Is there another cirque de soleil that I'm not aware of that has explicit adult material in their performance? Or have they changed so much from earlier days? I watched them when I was 12 and it was perfectly decent and amazing.
I'm confused about that too. And no, they haven't changed, I just watched Cirque a few months back and it was amazing family entertainment.
 

Ariadne

Well-known member
This is a debate forum, however conversation is bordering on personal attack - against a dancer who is not even here to speak up for herself.
Really? The attacks I am seeing aren't against Sadie but against those who don't agree with her marketing sexuality. When have I called her a single name?

Actually what I made was a coherent case for why the Taxicab Confessions video is irrelevant, not a "rant." And I did address all of the above.
No you dismissed all of the above by claiming it to be irrelevant and then attacking the people who mention the subject. It very much came across as a rant.

That video is not private in the sense that it was aired publicly on TV, but it is personal in the sense that it's about her personal life and not her professional (belly dance) life.
That is quite clear. It is however only a restatement of your entire argument that anything that occurs outside of BD has nothing to do with her public image. I don't agree and I do believe I have stated clearly why.


The lines that were drawn by jjj were drawn because people like you and others continuously bring the Taxicab video out of oblivion to prove some sort of point and/or to drag Sadie's reputation into the mud. You still have not addressed this point.
Actually people like me had to clarify that the video had nothing to do with BD because someone mentioned it as an aside and someone else jumped to the wrong conclusion. You then jumped all over someone who was offended by it AND her other behavior in BD.


If you feel Sadie deliberately creates a sexually charged belly dance image, then you should only be using her belly dance performances, videos, etc to prove that point. Why do you need to bring something that is unrelated to belly dance into the picture?
I don't. I do however recognize that it is a legitimate part of the discussion on her public image and that people realize that fact even if you don't like it. How many times do I have to use the phrase "pattern of behavior" before you address it?


And excuse me, but where on any of these posts have I called anyone names?
Lets see, http://www.bellydanceforums.net/debate/16413-sadie-hmmmm-6.html#post199104 cruel and catty are mentioned. On a first reading it came across as if you believe those who so much as discuss the subject are dragging her through the mud out into the streets so we can sew a big red scarlet "A" on her chest for all to see. If that isn't what you meant then you shouldn't refer to others opinions and concerns as an "excuse".


Let me see if I can summarize:

You believe that anything that happens outside of BD should never be brought up in relation to a dancers image in any form.

I agree that their ability and marketing as a dancer should speak for itself. However I also believe that anything they publish publicly potentially becomes part of their public image (say that 3 times fast ;) ) and to expect others to completely ignore anything not BD when discussing that same public image is unrealistic, especially when they overlap.

For heavens sakes Yame, the person who brought up the subject was defending her not using it as an opportunity to bring her down. If her fervent supporters mention it why should someone who doesn't like it be required to shut up?


The fact is that any type of performer has a public image and if they don't want their personal life to impact that public image they themselves have to keep it private. This is no different then an actor getting getting kudos for their charity, or using their image to endorse a political candidate, or upsetting their audience with some badly timed comments. Years ago when a certain country group ticked off their customers so bad they started mailing back their CD's to them Dolly Parton was asked her opinion. She told the news that anything a performer does publicly becomes part of their image and they have to keep it in mind when they open their mouths. Then she refused to discuss politics with them because she was a performer and her political views had nothing to do with her career and she was keeping it that way.

That is the reality plain and simple. Whether you like Sadie as a dancer or don't like her she is the one who opened her mouth and now what she said is part of her public image. The only one who can change that public image is her and nothing will change that.


I don't understand the cirque de soleil reference. Is there another cirque de soleil that I'm not aware of that has explicit adult material in their performance?
No, when they perform in family arenas their work is amazing. Unfortunately like many other performing groups when they work in Las Vegas their show is sexually charged in order to compete with the adult entertainment genre there. Many a person has told me they would no long watch them after going to one of their Vegas shows because of it. That is the style of show that Groove De Mode's advertising compared them with, not their family friendly shows.
 

Yame

New member
Exact quote from me: "To bring back something from her past that has nothing to do with dance just to shame her is cruel and unnecessary."
This is no personal insult against anyone on this thread. This isn't calling a person names, it's not even calling a person cruel. It's stating that a certain action is cruel and unnecessary.

The other quote was *specifically* in reference to what I have seen on youtube, belly dancers pointing out the Taxicab video to people who like Sadie just to ruin her reputation: "This either makes belly dancers look like a catty bunch who will say anything to bring each other down, or it does exactly what these people say they are trying to protect belly dance from"
Again, not calling any specific person on this thread catty, but stating that this is what this sort of thing makes us look like to other people.

If I wanted to call anybody on this thread catty, I would have said so. I don't even think anyone here is catty nor cruel, we are having a civil discussion. I just thought it was unfair to use that kind of footage against a dancer (or against anybody) and pointed it out.

On a first reading it came across as if you believe those who so much as discuss the subject are dragging her through the mud out into the streets so we can sew a big red scarlet "A" on her chest for all to see.
It's a bit of a hyperbole, but yes essencially this is what I believe. As I've said before in this reply and others, I'm not saying anyone on this thread is attacking Sadie harshly as I've seen happen on other threads *everytime* this topic is mentioned but I was seeing hints of disdain towards her for the Taxicab video which I don't think is fair game for us to be discussing. She has provided us with plenty of material for us to make up our minds about her dancing, based upon her dancing alone.

You believe that anything that happens outside of BD should never be brought up in relation to a dancers image in any form.
Correct, unless it's extremely grave.

I agree that their ability and marketing as a dancer should speak for itself. However I also believe that anything they publish publicly potentially becomes part of their public image (say that 3 times fast ;) )
I've always been under the impression the Taxicab video happened before Sadie was a professional belly dancer. I could be wrong about this and even if I am it doesn't change my opinion on the matter, but I am bringing this up because it could affect other people's. What are your thoughts regarding the possibility that this happened and was given consent to before she ever thought she would be a public figure?

and to expect others to completely ignore anything not BD when discussing that same public image is unrealistic, especially when they overlap.
It might be unrealistic, but yes I still expect it. And no, I don't believe they overlap at all, the little overlap there is happened because someone dug that out of oblivion specifically to damage her reputation. I don't think we should be complicit in allowing that sort of thing to be used as valid ammunition.

The fact is that any type of performer has a public image and if they don't want their personal life to impact that public image they themselves have to keep it private. This is no different then an actor getting getting kudos for their charity, or using their image to endorse a political candidate, or upsetting their audience with some badly timed comments.
To me it's very different. First, because famous belly dancers have much less clout and protection than famous actors/actresses. There are world-famous dancers out there who struggle to get by, so when people gossip about them, it's not like they are so separate from the people gossiping that they are sort of shielded from it. They are affected by it in a very real way.

More importantly though, to me it's an issue that has to do with female sexuality and the way the world views it and treats women who are open about it. I think it's unacceptable to be disrespectful towards any woman because she openly discusses issues of sex, displays her body, etc. This is more akin to when a celebrity saying something openly about her sex life, and then people bashing her, calling her a slut (not that anyone has used this word here but it has happened on other threads), etc. Or when someone leaks out celebrity nude shots and people say disrespectful things about them. Regardless of whether or not the person is a public figure, I don't think it's okay to disrespect them because of that.

I understand the concern to maintain a family-friendly image for belly dance, so I can understand disagreeing with Sadie's portrayal of belly dance. But something that has nothing to do with belly dance should be out of the realm of discussion. Even if the person who originally brought it up in this particular case was a fan.
 

Ahava_Melantha

New member
I personally don't like her style of dancing, although there are 2 or 3 dances of hers that i like, sans the lack of expression. but i'm curious, if anyone has tried her a teacher? i don't care for her style but i've heard she does awesome drilling for muscle memory and stuff. and i'm thinking maybe that would be good to get my bd groove back.

ideas ladies?
 

Darshiva

Moderator
I haven't studied with her personally (and I don't think she's been in Australia in a teaching capacity since I started doing workshops & privates) but I have heard that she is an excellent teacher from various sources. I'd probably go to her for technique cleanup if I got the chance to.
 

Yame

New member
I'm also not into the style, but have heard great things about her as a teacher. Because of this, and because her technique is so clean, I would absolutely take a class/workshop with her if I had the chance.
 

Sophia Maria

New member
Woah! Didn't get a chance to check the forums since I last posted, just read all the debate that happened while I was gone! I understand that this thread got way off topic and has to get back on topic, but first I just want to explain myself shortly because I think things got taken out of proportion. I did not intend to attack Sadie, unfortunately I think my comment about losing respect came off that way, and I apologize for that. Ariadne was right when she said I wasn't just referencing confessions (I only just learned about its existence yesterday, I never even saw it, couldn't even find it), but the way Sadie has portrayed herself as a dancer, in her choreography and style. That's what I don't like, and that is the topic of this thread. The rap video that I actually saw was only the icing on the cake, and that rap video is most definitely a part of her dancing and how she portrays her public dancing life.

At the heart of the issue, it's her dancing style that I don't care for. When I watch her, I always notice her crystal clear technique; her isolations are so sharp. Her flutters are one of the most impressive I've ever seen. But for me its too big and busy, and her technique overshadows the mood of the music. Sometimes her chest and pelvic isolations are so huge, to me its not classy at all and comes off as more sexualized. Please, please, don't start arguing because I used that word--I'm just trying to answer the original question about how we felt about Sadie's dance style. It's just my opinion. The point is, sometimes her movements are so big and showy that elegance and emotion that I enjoy so much in BD just don't appear.

Ahava_Melantha I agree, I've found 2 or 3 dances of hers that are pretty good, except I'm not a fan of her expression.

Edited to add: but yeah, I've only heard (and said) good things about her technique, so if you find you have the opportunity to take a workshop with her, why not go for it?
 
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Yame

New member
Thank you animadanza for making it clear and sorry for any misunderstanding and for derailing the thread!
 

jjj

New member
I want to apologize for my big oopsie. I really did not mean to offend anyone with my comment. Actually I meant it in a good way. I think it was wrong to post that in a touchy subject. Joke gone bad :(

I have seen some of her videos in youtube and like her style very much. I'm trying to learn about the dance as much as possible so maybe down the line I will think differently. But at the moment I like and enjoy what I see in her style.

Again big apology if I insulted anyone by my comment.
 

Ahava_Melantha

New member
i actuallly saw a dance of Sadie while pregnant. it was a dance shes done before. but it was sort of funny, because her bust had "really" filled out and i'm not sure if she could have gotten a bigger bra.

yeah - her chest movements got quite a bit smaller and controlled lol.
 

Ariadne

Well-known member
(I checked and this conversation is allowed.)

This is no personal insult against anyone on this thread. This isn't calling a person names, it's not even calling a person cruel. It's stating that a certain action is cruel and unnecessary.
Then I apologize. Especially since it seems that this condemnation of an action over a person is actually what seems to be the misunderstanding in this case. Just as you can condemn an action without condemning a person so may others. Disapproving of an action does not mean condemning them entirely. It is possible to lose respect for someones public morals without condemning the person and their skills also.


Correct, unless it's extremely grave.
And that is where we will have to agree to disagree.

You don't want anything to affect her dance career whether it's public image or personal morals so they must not be mentioned, shhhhhh, and that is just not realistic. I will be one of the first to admit that she has great technical skills and everyone who has studied with her says she's a great teacher. Her reputation as a dancer is excellent. I have also been told by many people who have meet her that she is a sweet person. It is her public image that is at issue here though and anything published IS part of that. Of course her public image will affect her career no matter her reputation as a dancer, that is what public images are for.

It's not gossip, it's not condemning her dancing, it's simply a part of her public image that she herself has cultivated.


More importantly though, to me it's an issue that has to do with female sexuality and the way the world views it and treats women who are open about it. I think it's unacceptable to be disrespectful towards any woman because she openly discusses issues of sex, displays her body, etc.
And with what you have said I believe that this is the real difference and not the rest.

Not everyone has the same morals you do so different people will respond differently to published sexuality; that is why many artist publish their sexuality. Think about Lady Gaga. The womans public image is centered around a sexual image. There are people who are offended by it and will never buy her material because of it and others who approve and will do the opposite. She isn't trying to appeal to the first her market is the second. Sadie has marketed herself to the public in a sexual matter; Confessions (2002), Rakkasah (2006), Rap video (2010), and advertising (ongoing). She has marketed her career to the public as a "hot and sexy" commodity and any published material that contributes to that public image is a legitimate part and parcel of it. Some people will be offended and not purchase and other will like it and do the opposite. Her market is the second not the first. (BTW, according to Sadie's bio her career began in 2002.) My husband recommends reading a book called "The 22 Immutable Laws of Marketing". Especially the sections on the the laws of "market segmentation" and "first to market".


You want the right to be able to be public about your own sexuality, you got it. What you don't have is the right not to offend others. Like anything else some will approve and some won't. That is the reality and what marketing is based off of. If you don't want the subject to be discussed publicly then you must keep it private yourself ie. not publish it in a public forum.
 

Nesia

New member
Living in Israel, I would say that the Middle Eastern spirit and soul are really missing in Sadie's dancing. Nevertheless I would compare her dancing to a virtuosic etude, designed for perfecting technical skills, but being a very important part of the music world.
In few days Israeli dancers will have an opportunity to participate at Sadie's workshops during Bellydance Spring Festival in Jerusalem. I think I'm going to do it ;)
 
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