Not Golden Era- but still Vintage as Heck

[Tourbeau]

The more i think about it, the more i wonder if the overt jazz influence was what people were annoyed with? the older stuff, although defiantly having a western influence, was more centered around all the ME styles with a heavy Turkish influence, therefore being more grounded in belly dance traditions? im just thinking out loud here

Depending on the dancer, older AmCab could have had elements of modern ballet/contemporary dance/whatever-we're-calling-what-followed-in-the-path-of-people-like-Ruth-St.-Denis-and-Isadora-Duncan, too. To the point of people disclosing their feelings about floorwork, can I admit that I didn't get that part where Elena was pulling herself across the floor by her elbows about halfway through over here http://bellydanceforums.net/threads/elena-lentini-1991.20161/ ? That looked like something you'd see in a really modern interpretive ballet to me.

We can also see people dancing from that country as well, not just teachers, but people actually from that culture. That's a MAJOR leg up. It also comes with its own downfalls, like people believing that Russian / Ukrainian dancers ARE dancing ME styles when they are not, simply due to the plethora of them online. i find alot of Chinese dancers dance the Russian styles and i rarely see them dancing Egyptian or Turkish. also, we can understand the cultural aspects better, again, meaning we can see that we have lack of dancers from the ME regions to learn from, due to the change in their culture. We have a better understanding of this, but its a double edged sword.

Many of those popular Eastern European dancers are working in the ME, and (the few) native dancers look at Alla Kushnir or Johara or whoever is pulling in the best gigs in Cairo these days, and they feel pressure to copy what they do. Almost everybody is cross pollinating with everybody else.

Then there is the whole can of worms about what we're supposed to do with the reality that a lot of what's al raqs al nas or sha'abi now is hip hop. I don't mean we're supposed to try to stop that--it's their culture and if that's how they want to dance, we don't have any authority to prevent them--but do we keep doing the old stuff (basically appointing ourselves as custodians of their dying dance traditions), or do we get on board with their new direction? Or some of both?

Can i also point out that the flip side to this is that other world folkloric dances have been very "westernized" (ie ballroom) which gives them respect as WE see it...

Mahmoud Reda never made any secret of being inspired by Gene Kelly, so anybody who wants to claim that what the Reda Troupe did was "real folklore" missed some critical information. I'm not sure part of why some of these older AmCab dance traditions drifted into disuse wasn't because the enthusiasm for "dance purity" got so tangled up in the Reda influence that it painted a lot of dance students out of the picture.

Unless you're from Egypt, and often even if you are, you probably need some Reda training for "street cred" as an Egyptian-style expert. If we're being honest, it is really hard to be successful at the Reda style without having ballet training. And if we're really being honest, we'll concede that a lot of our students wanted to be dancers when they were younger, but for whatever reasons, didn't end up performing the lead in "Swan Lake," so they signed up for a rec belly dance class years later instead.

I'm not trying to disrespect anybody. The BD community prides itself on being a haven for the souls who yearn to dance and missed their chance or weren't welcomed by another dance style earlier in life. I'm just wondering if sometimes students don't find themselves thinking, "I look like a clod trying to do this fancy, Reda Egyptian ballet junk, so I'll just do something easier. Pass me those fan veils and a Loreena McKennitt record." (Not that it's easy to be good at fans and "Marco Polo," but the learning curve is less complicated than learning all the pieces that go into doing something as specific as Reda style. And I'm not saying fusion is always easy. Good fusion can take years of training to lay the groundwork and clever artistic insight.)

 

[Tourbeau]

The peek-a-boo flirting over a veil can be the belly dance version of flirting over a fan.

I should have been clearer. I was thinking more of the style where the dancer puts part of the veil over their head and brings another part across their face so only their eyes are showing like a niqab. I don't think there is anything particularly offensive about just holding the veil up and looking over it.

Then again, I know at least one native dancer who thought it was perfectly acceptable dance flirting to pull a chunk of your long hair across your lower face and hold it with the back of your index finger next to your nose. I don't know if the difference is the hair looks more spontaneous and informal (no Muslim woman would think covering part of her face with her hair is sufficient modesty for a masjid), or if the veil being fabric is what pushes face covering with it into more potentially offensive territory.

Shakira did a wrist-binding whip snapping pseudo-belly dance thing with a rope that exceeded the ridiculous and entered the sublime, but the crowd went wild. No accounting for the fantasy lives of others.

I assume you are talking about Shakira the singer, not this Shakira the dancer, who was just plain "Shakira, belly dancer" until the singer came along and made it impossible to find her with a google search.

I forgot all about those pleated semicircular veils. They weren't popular for very long, were they? I guess a couple of styles of veil were lost when silks took over. When's the last time you saw a chiffon veil decorated with sequins or even lurex stripes? Or one of those cape/duster-with-armholes things you could wear and also use as a veil?

Opening the veil was always done with one's back to the audience; whipping off the veil facing the audience smacked of strip tease. (No, please don't start about the legitimacy of strip tease as an artform. I am not criticizing strippers, just noting that their costume reveals are of a completely different nature and purpose and have no place in belly dance.)

Well, now that you mention it, I've heard teachers say that dancing off your veil doesn't sit well with some ME audiences, because that's too stripper-y for their liking. YMMV. And I've also heard that if you need to get out of a Khaleeji thobe on stage, go through the sleeve and drop it; never pull it over your head in front of an audience.

 

[Zorba]

Well, now that you mention it, I've heard teachers say that dancing off your veil doesn't sit well with some ME audiences, because that's too stripper-y for their liking. YMMV. And I've also heard that if you need to get out of a Khaleeji thobe on stage, go through the sleeve and drop it; never pull it over your head in front of an audience.

I have heard that too. I've also heard that ME folk don't like male Belly Dancers - and have experienced that first hand myself. OTOH, I've "converted" a few of the younger ones, they figured out I wasn't so bad after all.

 

[Shanazel]

Somebody always doesn't like something, no matter what the issue. Ppphhhhttt.

 

[Zorba]

Somebody always doesn't like something, no matter what the issue. Ppphhhhttt.

True enough - and I don't care anymore. Its their problem, not mine.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

Then there is the whole can of worms about what we're supposed to do with the reality that a lot of what's al raqs al nas or sha'abi now is hip hop. I don't mean we're supposed to try to stop that--it's their culture and if that's how they want to dance, we don't have any authority to prevent them--but do we keep doing the old stuff (basically appointing ourselves as custodians of their dying dance traditions), or do we get on board with their new direction? Or some of both?

You are the first person I've come across who sees this the same way!!

 

[Shanazel]

Saw this on the site Zorba hates. Jenza at an AmCab revival in 2013. The thing that immediately stood out to me is she is dancing flatfooted, which gives a very different flavor to AmCab than dancing on demi-pointe. Don't know whether it is an adaptation to an aging body (oh, I get that!) or just the way she always danced, but dancing flatfooted makes a huge difference in movement and flexibility. Huh. Really interesting.

 

[Shanazel]

I was taken privately to task for appearing to critisize Jenza's dancing, so I thought I'd add an explanation here.

What I wrote wasn't criticism of the lady, and I'm sorry if it came across that way. It was an observation of how different a dance looks when done on flat feet than when done on half point. Jenza and I aren't too far apart in age. We were also dancing professionally about the same time, and i know what the expectations and stylizations of AmCab were at that time. I quit dancing at about the age Jenza was in the video, largely because while the mind is willing, the body is increasingly uncooperative. My knees, for example, hadn't gone anywhere near the floor for fifteen years before I retired, because once I got down there, it took my entire class to get me back on my feet. Thus I wondered if dancing on flat feet was a stylistic choice for Jenza or one made necessary by physical limitations.

Contrary to popular belief, late 1970s AmCab wasn't an undisciplined wafting of one's veil and expressing one's authentic self- there really were some basic guidelines for the style. AmCab was properly done on half-point. If one dances on the balls of one's feet, it imparts a kind of fluidity that flat-footed style doesn't. It's easier to show someone than explain in words, but I'll try. Walk across the floor heel-toe-heel-toe. Then cross the floor ball-ball-ball-ball. The movement is different, the speed and smoothness are different. There is also a change in the line of the body when one dances flat footed, which was what I noticed in Jenza's dance style before I figured out what was causing it. She was in full contact with the dancefloor, which gives the movements a solid earthy feel, as opposed to the more- what's the word? Ethereal?- movement common to old AmCab.

That's all. No criticism, just interest and curiosity.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

I was taken privately to task for appearing to critisize Jenza's dancing, so I thought I'd add an explanation here.

What I wrote wasn't criticism of the lady, and I'm sorry if it came across that way. It was an observation of how different a dance looks when done on flat feet than when done on half point. Jenza and I aren't too far apart in age. We were also dancing professionally about the same time, and i know what the expectations and stylizations of AmCab were at that time. I quit dancing at about the age Jenza was in the video, largely because while the mind is willing, the body is increasingly uncooperative. My knees, for example, hadn't gone anywhere near the floor for fifteen years before I retired, because once I got down there, it took my entire class to get me back on my feet. Thus I wondered if dancing on flat feet was a stylistic choice for Jenza or one made necessary by physical limitations.

Contrary to popular belief, late 1970s AmCab wasn't an undisciplined wafting of one's veil and expressing one's authentic self- there really were some basic guidelines for the style. AmCab was properly done on half-point. If one dances on the balls of one's feet, it imparts a kind of fluidity that flat-footed style doesn't. It's easier to show someone than explain in words, but I'll try. Walk across the floor heel-toe-heel-toe. Then cross the floor ball-ball-ball-ball. The movement is different, the speed and smoothness are different. There is also a change in the line of the body when one dances flat footed, which was what I noticed in Jenza's dance style before I figured out what was causing it. She was in full contact with the dancefloor, which gives the movements a solid earthy feel, as opposed to the more- what's the word? Ethereal?- movement common to old AmCab.

That's all. No criticism, just interest and curiosity.

Oh definitely there is a difference! I notice at times that Rania Bossonis danced more flat footed and the effect is very earthy. Plus in my own experience folkloric North African dances are more flat footed. It seems that most of the Amcab that I have seen is more demi-pointe too. I don't think you were saying either one is right or wrong.

 

[Tourbeau]

I guess I'm seeing things from the opposite perspective, but each blind man touched a different part of the elephant. I don't think there is much of the old-school AmCab that would qualify as "ethereal." "Elegant and graceful," sure, but the veil section is the only light and airy part. AFAIC, a malfouf entrance is too percussive, the uptempo sections and drum solo are too energetic, and you can't get any more grounded than doing floorwork.

I think of old-school AmCab as earthy and strongly connected to ME social dancing, which does not require a high foot position (unless the dancer preferred it or liked wearing high heels). This would be consistent with the informality of the way the dance was learned back then. Some teachers developed structured training systems, but many students learned by imitation, "on the job" in clubs, or from more experienced dancers who had learned informally. The melting pot quality of older AmCab may not stand up to the modern purist rigors ("You can't do a hagallah shimmy to a karsilama!"), but the individual components were still fairly reflective of how everyday people danced over there, which might have been naturally graceful but typically wasn't formally trained.

And while ballet has always flirted with belly dance, I have the sense it didn't really bully its way into the mainstream until the 1990's and later. Interest in Egyptian style (and particularly Reda technique), BDSS, the large influx of Eastern Europeans who had professional backgrounds in other dance disciplines, and other factors tilted a field that had once been fairly egalitarian (you could start from no dance experience and still build a nice pro career as a belly dancer) to a situation where not being able to dance with the carriage of a ballerina pretty much shuts you out of top-tier aspirations...and this is when AmCab became "ethereal," IMO. Even If you want to be a folkloric dancer now, you need the ballet experience to arabesque and rond de jambe your way through those Reda routines. Just being "baladi" stopped being good enough.

 

[Zorba]

FWIW, and FWEIM, I do the vast majority of my dancing in Releve' - I was trained that way, plus its easier once the speed starts to pick up.

 

[Tourbeau]

FWIW, and FWEIM, I do the vast majority of my dancing in Releve' - I was trained that way, plus its easier once the speed starts to pick up.

I think most dancers intuitively move (travel or turn) with their heels at least slightly off the floor in low relevé, and this is fine for many of our purposes. Other dancers, especially the ones with extensive ballet backgrounds, prefer a high relevé where the toes are almost perpendicular to the midfoot, and that's fine, too.

There's a whole philosophy of alignment and "stacking" that goes into learning proper ballet posture that we don't typically drill in our classes, and making those kinds of postural exercises a mandatory part of our curriculum would discourage or exclude a lot of students. People who are in belly dance classes for fun and good vibes wouldn't want to be hectored for half of each class about posture, and other students (myself included) have physical limitations that mean some aspects of dancing in high relevé are simply not doable. We definitely could--and probably should--teach more postural drilling than we do, particularly torso elevation and arm work, since "dumpy posture" and "bad arms" are such widespread complaints from students who have little or no previous dance experience, but we don't need to become ballet taskmasters to make progress on that weakness.

And we should acknowledge that if one aspires to dance in the Reda, modern Eastern-European-influenced Egyptian, or retro-Lebanese-in-sky-high-heels style, high relevé is necessary for the proper aesthetic, while also noting that Khyriyya Mazin probably dances better than all of us added together and she's not even in low relevé most of the time here:

 

[Zorba]

Then I'd say I'm somewhere in between. Medium or maybe medium high releve'. I seldom notice when watching another dancer - my "big thing" is arms. Arms are the worst, they're the hardest to learn, and I *STILL* let them die sometimes and/or put them in wonky positions!

 

[Shanazel]

Arms are a challenge for lots of people, including and especially the fingered appendages at the end of them.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

I got better with arms after I started taking flamenco. Go figure, but most of my teachers were more interested in retaining students as students only and not very interested in making performers out of them. As for ballet, I'd be SOL since I never took a lesson in my life, but as for rhythm, I have it in spades, which I atribute to my music lessons when I was growing up.

 

[Zorba]

...but as for rhythm, I have it in spades, which I atribute to my music lessons when I was growing up.

Which is why you play finger cymbals so well!

 

[Tourbeau]

This thing turned up again today....

"My Favorite Martian"
S2 E01 "Dreaming Can Make It So"

All of the dancing is in the first 1:30. Does anybody know anything about Beatriz (Beatrice) Monteil, Sandra Lynn, or Barbara McCall? The one in the middle looks like she had some training. I can't tell if the other two were students or just fit the costumes.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

The one in the middle does look like she had some training.