Kocek's

[xotic]

Here are some video's of Turkish Kocek's on youtube if anyone is interested...?

Some of these videos are incredible specially the ones that are taped by the public..I found so many :lol: ...take your pick...Enjoy!

YouTube - Tv Makinası Çarlinin Köçekleri

YouTube - cide-kocek

YouTube - Karabük Köçek Show 2006

YouTube - köçek, Gerçek Köçek Görüntüleri, Bolu-Mengen Köy düğünü, İly

YouTube - köçek

YouTube - köçek

YouTube - köçek

YouTube - Ayancık Davul-Zurna-Köçek Videosu

YouTube - www.mutlusun.com.tr.tc

YouTube - Köçekler

YouTube - gölbaşılı niyazi (yeni)

YouTube - Drahnader Açılışı (Köçeklerin oynayışı)

YouTube - Drahnader Açılışı (Köçeklerin oynayışı) 2

YouTube - Gıydıvanın kızları Zarbana Gençlik anday düğünü

YouTube - ankara havası

 

[xotic]

Ooooops...maybe I should of put this in the Youtube video's section.

Ok well if you think they belong elsewhere then could a moderator please move this post?

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Oh my god, you're just as bad as me! I have all of these clips in my favorates, but you even managed to find a few I didn't. And to think 12 years ago even my Turkish friends swore that this stuff didn't exist any more, and now they've seemed to make a comeback in a really big way!:dance: :clap:

 

[Maria_Aya]

Wow how can I say it... its just... amazing !!!!!

You made my day Tesekur ederim

Maria Aya, Athens, Greece (just to show that greeks and turks we are from the same nut-tree nutcases lol)

 

[xotic]

he he he...

You're most welcome Maria.

And don't I know it! :lol: I have a lot of Greek friend's and I also used to work in a Greek taverna in my early teen day's so I'm aware of exactly how nutty we all are, it's good though, we should keep it up. Why shouldn't men wear skirt's? Why should we just use plate's to eat from when we can have more fun smashing the lot on the floor? :lol:

I'd seen Kocek's dancing before but never in a million year's did I expect to find so many video's on youtube. I'm glad you enjoyed it as much as I did.

Lot's of love and shimmie's from London :dance:

 

[Maria_Aya]

Heyyyy I'm gonna be at London next week !!!
Dancing at Darbuka, info PLANET EGYPT: Bellydancing Parties at Darbucka, London
And I'm gonna dance greek style Izmir oriental dance from 1920 !!!
Heyyyy also many orientaldancer friends gonna be there!!

 

[Helena]

Respect to the kocek!

A few years ago some kocek performed at the cultural centre here in Gent. O my god, I was in shock! I was expecting women since I had never heard of kocek before.

Anyway after the initial shock I really enjoyed their performance! They were way better than the trashy 'bellydancers' that performed after them.

 

[deelybopper]

Wow - thanks for sharing xotic!

I've only got halfway down this list of links (if that) and I have some questions (sort of ignorant about koceks, please bear with me):

Most of the costumes are red, skirt and waistcoat - is that significant, or is it just cos it's a nice bright colour? [OK I watched the rest of the clips and saw that the koceks aren't always wearing red!)

The little purse-type things worn round the hips that they bounce up and down when doing pelvic tilts - what are they?

In a couple of clips some men in street clothes are dancing with the koceks - does that usually happen?

OK - that's all the questions for now , I'm sure I'll think of some more later
D

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Wow - thanks for sharing xotic!

I've only got halfway down this list of links (if that) and I have some questions (sort of ignorant about koceks, please bear with me):

Most of the costumes are red, skirt and waistcoat - is that significant, or is it just cos it's a nice bright colour?

The little purse-type things worn round the hips that they bounce up and down when doing pelvic tilts - what are they?

In a couple of clips some men in street clothes are dancing with the koceks - does that usually happen?

OK - that's all the questions for now , I'm sure I'll think of some more later
D

I think it might just be regional style of preference. There is on clip of a guy all in blue and in Ankara they seem to like brown with white polkadots. I'm not totally sure though, just a guess.

I've been trying to figure out what they're flipping also. at first I thought maybe they were rolled up coins. whatever it is, it must have some weight to bounce like that.

As for the ordinary guys, from all the footage I've seen, its normal to dance with them, just like folks will do with us.

 

[xotic]

To be honest I haven''t the slightest...

What Tarik said make's sense though so I'll have to agree with him.

This is what I found out about them on Wikipedia:

"A köçek would begin training around the age of seven or eight, and would be considered accomplished after about six years of study and practice. A dancer's career would last as long as he was beardless and retained his youthful appearance. Dancers would get married when they were around 25 or 30, and then could become organizers of a new köçek troop. Köçeks were organized into companies known as kol. Twelve such companies were counted in the mid-1600's, each company averaging about 250 dancers.

Their erotic dances, collectively known as köçek oyunu, blended Arab, Greek, Assyrian and Kurdish elements. They were performed to a particular genre of music known as köçekce, which was performed in the form of suites in a given melody. It too was a mix of Sufi, Balkan and classical Anatolian influences, some of which survives in popular Turkish music today. The accompaniment included various percussion instruments, such as the davul-köçek, a large drum of Armenian origin, one side covered with goat skin and the other in sheep skin, producing different tones. The skill of a köçek would be judged not only on his dancing abilities but also on his proficiency with the percussion instruments, especially a type of castagnette known as the çarpare. In later times these were replaced by metal cymbals called zils.

The dancers would be accompanied by an orchestra, featuring four to five each kaba kemence and lauto as principal instruments, used exclusively for köçek suites. There would also be two singers. A köçek dance in the Ottoman harem would involve one or two dozen köçeks, and a large number of musicians. The occasions of their performances were wedding celebrations, circumcision celebrations, feasts, festivals, as well as the pleasure of the sultans and the aristocracy.

The youths, often wearing heavy makeup, would curl their hair and wear it in long tresses under a small black or red velvet hat decorated with coins, jewels and gold. Their usual garb consisted of a tiny red embroidered velvet jacket with a gold-embroidered silk shirt, shalvars (baggy trousers), a long skirt, and a gilt belt, knotted at the back. They were said to be "sensuous, attractive, effeminate," and their dancing "sexually provocative," impersonating female dancers. Dancers minced and gyrated their hips in slow vertical and horizontal figure-8's, rhythmically snapping their fingers and making suggestive gestures. Often, acrobatics, tumbling, and mock wrestling were also part of the act. The köçeks were available sexually, often to the highest bidder, in the passive role. It is presumed that many of them were transgender.

The names and backgrounds of köçeks in Istanbul in the 18th century are well documented. Among the more celebrated köçeks from the end of the 18th century are the Gypsy Benli Ali of Dimetoka (today's Greece); Buyuk (big, older) Afet (born Yorgaki) of Croatian origin, Kucuk (little) Afet (born Kaspar) of Armenian origin, and Pandeli from the Greek Island of Chiros. There were at least fifty köçeks of star stature at the time. The famous ones, like the Gypsy köçek Ismail, would have to be booked weeks or months in advance, at a very high cost.

Western visitors were variously taken with the - for them - unusual sight of pederasty unleashed. One impression is preserved in Don Leon, a poem anonymously written in the voice of Lord Byron:


''Here much I saw – and much I mused to see
''The loosened garb of Eastern luxury.
''I sought the brothel, where, in maiden guise,
''The black-eyed boy his trade unblushing plies;
''Where in lewd dance he acts the scenic show –
''His supple haunches wriggling to and fro:
''With looks voluptuous the thought excites,
''Whilst gazing sit the hoary sybarites:
''Whilst gentle lute and drowsy tambourine
''Add to the languor of the monstrous scene.
''Yes, call it monstrous! but not monstrous, where
''Close latticed harems hide the timid fair:
''With mien gallant where pæderasty smirks,
''And whoredom, felon like, in covert lurks.
''All this I saw – but saw it not alone –
''A friend was with me, and I dared not own
''How much the sight had touched some inward sense,
Too much for e’en the closest confidence. (441-8).
In his travels to the Levant, Byron had indeed been present at such a dance as described above. His traveling companion, John Cam Hobhouse, relates in his diary that on Saturday, May 19th, 1810:

This day, went with Byron and a party to the wine houses of Galata. Took pipes, and saw two old and ugly boys, who wrung the sweat off their brows, dance as before, waving their long hair. Also they spread a mat and, putting on a kind of shawl, performed an Alexandrian woman’s dance – much the same, except that they knelt, and, covering each other’s heads, seemed as if kissing. One of Mr Adair’s Janissaries, who talks English and has been in England, was with us. I asked him if these boys would not be hanged in England. “Oh yes, directly. De Turk take and byger dem d’ye see?”
For this beastly sight we paid fifty-five piastres, five to the boys each, and five to all fiddlers and singers and performers &c., nor is this dear, I understand. Turk boys are not allowed to dance. [Excerpt from Hobhouse's diary]

The youths were held in high esteem. Famous poets, such as Fazyl bin Tahir Enderuni, wrote poems, and classical composers, such as the court musician Hammamizade İsmail Dede Efendi (1778-1846), composed köçekces for celebrated koceks. Many Istanbul meyhanes (night-time taverns serving meze, raki or wine) hired köçeks. Before starting their performance, the köçek danced among the spectators, to make them more excited. In the audience, competition for their attention often caused commotions and altercations. Men would go wild, breaking their glasses, shouting themselves voiceless, or fighting and sometimes killing each other vying for the boys' sexual favors. This resulted in suppression of the practice under sultan Sultan Abd-ul-Mejid I. Köçek dances were officially banned in 1856, and many of the boys left the country to practice their profession in Egypt and elsewhere. With the suppression of harem culture under Sultan Abdulaziz (1861-1876) and Sultan Abdulhamid II (1876-1908), köçek dance and music lost the support of its royal patrons, and gradually disappeared.
The other type of rakkas, or male dancer (from raks, "dance") was the tavşan oğlan, "rabbit boy," a young dancer dressed in provocative male clothing: tight pants and a jaunty hat. The non-Muslim tavşan oğlan are thought to have come mainly from the Greek islands in the Aegean and the Sea of Marmara. They performed mainly during Ramadan, working as sakis "wine boys" in the meyhanes otherwise, when not dancing at special occasions.

Köçeks were much more sought after than the çengi, their feminine counterparts. Some youths were known to have been killed by the çengi, who were extremely jealous of men's attention towards the boys.


--Modern offshoots--

At the present time, the same-sex love and sexuality aspect of köçek culture is considered to have been "a privilege of the powerful economic classes or the world of the arts." Though no new compositions or performances have taken place in the last hundred years, male dancers dressed as women still perform in some areas of Turkey, though their art is no longer primarily of a sensual nature and is seen primarily as folkloric.
The style however continues to inspire modern musicians. Ulvi Cemal Erkin (1906-1972) is a Turkish classical composer whose most popular masterpiece is Köçekçe a dance rhapsody composed in 1943, and perhaps the best known single piece of Turkish music abroad. It was first introduced to the public in 1943 with E. Praetorius conducting the Presidential Symphony Orchestra.

Another modern interpretation is the movie Kocek (1975) by director Nejat Saydam. It is probably the first Turkish movie to deal with the topic of homosexuality and change of gender role.

At the same time, young male dancers dressed in sparkling costumes are again finding favor, despite the objections of conservative commentators. Known as rakkas they have become a common feature of dance halls and night clubs. They perform seductive belly dances, and are reputed to be "as sexual and popular as any of the best Turkish female belly dancers."

 

[xotic]

------------------------ALSO FOUND THIS------------------------

"Competing—successfully—with the women of the harem for the affection of the Ottoman noble were young males in various functions, chief among whom were the entertainers, known as köçeks. They traveled in troupes and were skilled in music, dancing, and erotic pleasures. The average troupe—named after its leader—would have about thirty dancers, though some had several hundred. When not on stage, köçeks would work in coffee-houses and taverns, where they would serve drinks, flirt, and be available for trysts with the clientele.

They were highly sought after by all nobles of all ranks, including the Sultan. Köçeks wore elegant and gaudy costumes, had long curly hair, and were immortalized in books discussing their qualities and ranking them by nationality, such as the Huban-nameh of Enderunlu Fazil."

------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm now looking at a Turkish website that gives a description of the Kocek's and they have a few picture's of the clothes they used to wear and they look nothing like the clothes the people in the youtube videos are wearing.

The website also say's that they wore "zenginlik" around their waist's which basically means "riches" so I'm guessing that what they have round their waist might just be a scarf with a lot of coins on it to represent the "riches"...perhaps, I dunno?!?!?

 

[xotic]

Heyyyy I'm gonna be at London next week !!!
Dancing at Darbuka, info PLANET EGYPT: Bellydancing Parties at Darbucka, London
And I'm gonna dance greek style Izmir oriental dance from 1920 !!!
Heyyyy also many orientaldancer friends gonna be there!!

:shok: MARIA!!! I SOOO want to come, it's only a few stop's away from my house on the train, really close. Just got in contact with my friend who does belly dance and he's interested in coming too, he said he's going to let me know tomorrow. I will let you know soon but I would say I'm 90% sure I will be there cheering you on:clap:. I wish I'd known sooner, If not my friend, I'll have to drag my Mum there. I shall let you know in the next few day's.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

To be honest I haven''t the slightest...

What Tarik said make's sense though so I'll have to agree with him.

This is what I found out about them on Wikipedia:


The youths, often wearing heavy makeup, would curl their hair and wear it in long tresses under a small black or red velvet hat decorated with coins, jewels and gold. Their usual garb consisted of a tiny red embroidered velvet jacket with a gold-embroidered silk shirt, shalvars (baggy trousers), a long skirt, and a gilt belt, knotted at the back. They were said to be "sensuous, attractive, effeminate," and their dancing "sexually provocative," impersonating female dancers. Dancers minced and gyrated their hips in slow vertical and horizontal figure-8's, rhythmically snapping their fingers and making suggestive gestures. Often, acrobatics, tumbling, and mock wrestling were also part of the act. The köçeks were available sexually, often to the highest bidder, in the passive role. It is presumed that many of them were transgender.

The names and backgrounds of köçeks in Istanbul in the 18th century are well documented. Among the more celebrated köçeks from the end of the 18th century are the Gypsy Benli Ali of Dimetoka (today's Greece); Buyuk (big, older) Afet (born Yorgaki) of Croatian origin, Kucuk (little) Afet (born Kaspar) of Armenian origin, and Pandeli from the Greek Island of Chiros. There were at least fifty köçeks of star stature at the time. The famous ones, like the Gypsy köçek Ismail, would have to be booked weeks or months in advance, at a very high cost.

Western visitors were variously taken with the - for them - unusual sight of pederasty unleashed. One impression is preserved in Don Leon, a poem anonymously written in the voice of Lord Byron:


''Here much I saw – and much I mused to see
''The loosened garb of Eastern luxury.
''I sought the brothel, where, in maiden guise,
''The black-eyed boy his trade unblushing plies;
''Where in lewd dance he acts the scenic show –
''His supple haunches wriggling to and fro:
''With looks voluptuous the thought excites,
''Whilst gazing sit the hoary sybarites:
''Whilst gentle lute and drowsy tambourine
''Add to the languor of the monstrous scene.
''Yes, call it monstrous! but not monstrous, where
''Close latticed harems hide the timid fair:
''With mien gallant where pæderasty smirks,
''And whoredom, felon like, in covert lurks.
''All this I saw – but saw it not alone –
''A friend was with me, and I dared not own
''How much the sight had touched some inward sense,
Too much for e’en the closest confidence. (441-8).
In his travels to the Levant, Byron had indeed been present at such a dance as described above. His traveling companion, John Cam Hobhouse, relates in his diary that on Saturday, May 19th, 1810:

This day, went with Byron and a party to the wine houses of Galata. Took pipes, and saw two old and ugly boys, who wrung the sweat off their brows, dance as before, waving their long hair. Also they spread a mat and, putting on a kind of shawl, performed an Alexandrian woman’s dance – much the same, except that they knelt, and, covering each other’s heads, seemed as if kissing. One of Mr Adair’s Janissaries, who talks English and has been in England, was with us. I asked him if these boys would not be hanged in England. “Oh yes, directly. De Turk take and byger dem d’ye see?”
For this beastly sight we paid fifty-five piastres, five to the boys each, and five to all fiddlers and singers and performers &c., nor is this dear, I understand. Turk boys are not allowed to dance. [Excerpt from Hobhouse's diary]

The youths were held in high esteem. Famous poets, such as Fazyl bin Tahir Enderuni, wrote poems, and classical composers, such as the court musician Hammamizade ?smail Dede Efendi (1778-1846), composed köçekces for celebrated koceks. Many Istanbul meyhanes (night-time taverns serving meze, raki or wine) hired köçeks. Before starting their performance, the köçek danced among the spectators, to make them more excited. In the audience, competition for their attention often caused commotions and altercations. Men would go wild, breaking their glasses, shouting themselves voiceless, or fighting and sometimes killing each other vying for the boys' sexual favors. This resulted in suppression of the practice under sultan Sultan Abd-ul-Mejid I. Köçek dances were officially banned in 1856, and many of the boys left the country to practice their profession in Egypt and elsewhere. With the suppression of harem culture under Sultan Abdulaziz (1861-1876) and Sultan Abdulhamid II (1876-1908), köçek dance and music lost the support of its royal patrons, and gradually disappeared.
The other type of rakkas, or male dancer (from raks, "dance") was the tav?an o?lan, "rabbit boy," a young dancer dressed in provocative male clothing: tight pants and a jaunty hat. The non-Muslim tav?an o?lan are thought to have come mainly from the Greek islands in the Aegean and the Sea of Marmara. They performed mainly during Ramadan, working as sakis "wine boys" in the meyhanes otherwise, when not dancing at special occasions.

Köçeks were much more sought after than the çengi, their feminine counterparts. Some youths were known to have been killed by the çengi, who were extremely jealous of men's attention towards the boys.


--Modern offshoots--

At the present time, the same-sex love and sexuality aspect of köçek culture is considered to have been "a privilege of the powerful economic classes or the world of the arts." Though no new compositions or performances have taken place in the last hundred years, male dancers dressed as women still perform in some areas of Turkey, though their art is no longer primarily of a sensual nature and is seen primarily as folkloric.
The style however continues to inspire modern musicians. Ulvi Cemal Erkin (1906-1972) is a Turkish classical composer whose most popular masterpiece is Köçekçe a dance rhapsody composed in 1943, and perhaps the best known single piece of Turkish music abroad. It was first introduced to the public in 1943 with E. Praetorius conducting the Presidential Symphony Orchestra.

Another modern interpretation is the movie Kocek (1975) by director Nejat Saydam. It is probably the first Turkish movie to deal with the topic of homosexuality and change of gender role.

At the same time, young male dancers dressed in sparkling costumes are again finding favor, despite the objections of conservative commentators. Known as rakkas they have become a common feature of dance halls and night clubs. They perform seductive belly dances, and are reputed to be "as sexual and popular as any of the best Turkish female belly dancers."

I must caution that when reading European travel accounts of dancers in the Middle East, especially accounts of prostitution and homosexuality, that one should take it with a grain, if not a whole bottle of salt. In other words, realise that information is often exagerated and blown out of proportion.

These same European that loved to write about bisexuality in the Muslim world, were quite often guilty of the very same crime. While they call the Kochecks effeminate, they fail to mention that at the same time in Europe, young boys were castrated in order to produce a soprano voice so that they could play the female roles in operas. Nor do they mention that these eunuchs were also quite often prostituted. They were fond of condeming the ghawaze as being prostitutes, yet never mentioned the fact that in Europe ballarinas and opera singers quite often practiced prostitution as well, in fact, it was generally assumed they were available. Men would line up to spend time with the girls back stage after the show. Does this mean they all were prostitutes, of course not.

The fact is that in the East and the West, there were performers who were protected from such things because of who their patrons were and the circles they worked in. Then there were those who were less fortunate. Many of them were either desperatly poor or orphens or in the east slaves. If they found themselves under the influence of greedy criminally minded folks, then they were undoubtedly exploited both economically and sexually.

As for the supposed bisexuality of Turkish and Arab men...It is a well known, well documented fact that in many European societies particularly England, that boys of the aristocricy and upper classes were generally sent to boarding schools and then on to collage. What do you supposed happened with all those boys in the prime of their sexual maturity, all stuck together with no available outlets for their sexual energy?:think: It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure it out. There goes that pink elephant in the middle of the room no one wants to talk about.

These tales about the lascivious more and the turid Turks were all propaganda to discredit the Ottoman Empire which was still a huge political threat. Today, the buzz words are terrorism and weapons of mass destruction, back then the buzz words were sodomy, moral laxity and cruelty. same game, different tactics, same political objective.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

------------------------ALSO FOUND THIS------------------------

"Competing—successfully—with the women of the harem for the affection of the Ottoman noble were young males in various functions, chief among whom were the entertainers, known as köçeks. They traveled in troupes and were skilled in music, dancing, and erotic pleasures. The average troupe—named after its leader—would have about thirty dancers, though some had several hundred. When not on stage, köçeks would work in coffee-houses and taverns, where they would serve drinks, flirt, and be available for trysts with the clientele.

They were highly sought after by all nobles of all ranks, including the Sultan. Köçeks wore elegant and gaudy costumes, had long curly hair, and were immortalized in books discussing their qualities and ranking them by nationality, such as the Huban-nameh of Enderunlu Fazil."

------------------------------------------------------------------

I'm now looking at a Turkish website that gives a description of the Kocek's and they have a few picture's of the clothes they used to wear and they look nothing like the clothes the people in the youtube videos are wearing.

The website also say's that they wore "zenginlik" around their waist's which basically means "riches" so I'm guessing that what they have round their waist might just be a scarf with a lot of coins on it to represent the "riches"...perhaps, I dunno?!?!?

The last picture shows what they actually wore when they were playing female roles. Think Shakespearian age theater in Turkish. This is a female outfit.

The reason why the period pieces don't resemble what kochecks wer today is because fashion has changed. The only part that is really costume is the skirt. The top and what was under it were the ordinary clothes of the day. This is an outfit from the Ottoman period, obviously of someone in a troup owned by someone from the wealthier clsses. Today the basic outfit for guys in Turkey is a white shirt, slacks or jeans and shoes or sneakers. They wear the skirt over their ordinary clothes.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

Where do you find this stuff? Damn you're good!

 

[xotic]

I hear what you're saying Tarik.

It take's me a long time to find Turkish related thing's because of the language difference. In the Turkish alphabet there are extra letter's and without them it's almost impossible to find the relevant information.

For instance the real way to spell Kocheck in Turkish is "köçek". I don't have the extra letter's on my laptop so I have to get my family in Cyprus to type them for me on MSN so I can search for whatever I'm looking for.

Because the extra letter's are not in the English alphabet köçek turn's to Kocek but then it's pronounced completely wrong so it's changed to Khocek or Kocheck so it's pronounced similar to how it sound's in Turkish. There is a Turkish fashion designer called Huseyin Caglayan but he goes by the name of Hussein Chalayan so that it's pronounced more accurately.

It's a friggin nightmare if you ask me, but once I find the correct spelling I get more result's on my searches, that's my lil' secret

 

[Kiraze]

IIt take's me a long time to find Turkish related thing's because of the language difference. In the Turkish alphabet there are extra letter's and without them it's almost impossible to find the relevant information.

For instance the real way to spell Kocheck in Turkish is "köçek". I don't have the extra letter's on my laptop so I have to get my family in Cyprus to type them for me on MSN so I can search for whatever I'm looking for.

Hi xotic! Thanks for all the wonderful info you have found of köceks

Anyway, the way you are doing the search sounds very troublesome: I myself have created a text document including Turkish alphabet of which I can copy correct letters when needed at search etc - maybe you could do that too to save trouble also from your family

Here are all the letters: hopefully they are shown correctly:
A, B, C, Ç, D, E, F, G, Ğ, H, I, İ, J, K, L, M, N, O, Ö, P, R, S, Ş, T, U, Ü, V, Y, Z
a, b, c, ç, d, e, f, g, ğ, h, ı, i, j, k, l, m, n, o, ö, p, r, s, ş, t, u, ü, v, y, z

 

[xotic]

Hi xotic! Thanks for all the wonderful info you have found of köceks

Anyway, the way you are doing the search sounds very troublesome: I myself have created a text document including Turkish alphabet of which I can copy correct letters when needed at search etc - maybe you could do that too to save trouble also from your family

Here are all the letters: hopefully they are shown correctly:
A, B, C, Ç, D, E, F, G, Ğ, H, I, İ, J, K, L, M, N, O, Ö, P, R, S, Ş, T, U, Ü, V, Y, Z
a, b, c, ç, d, e, f, g, ğ, h, ı, i, j, k, l, m, n, o, ö, p, r, s, ş, t, u, ü, v, y, z

My pleasure Kiraze

Thank you for the alphabet, :doh: I never thought of doing it that way :clap:

 

[deelybopper]

xotic and Tarik - thanks for the extra info!
D

 

[Maria_Aya]

Wow isnt this forum the coolest??????

Beside great info, the coolest people also !!!

Dear Xotic it would be fun meeting you at London, I'm gonna be the crazy greek one lol

Maria Aya

p.s. I'm keeping alllllllllll these info for archive !!! great great great