Justice to more than one style?

[Salome]

This is a bit of a spin off from the Help me understand Tribal... thread and... in our site instructors directory, in the submission process, we ask the teacher to list the style(s) she teaches. It seems that a good many people list several styles. There are thousands of listings in our directory so it's a good sampling of what, at least, part of a community is doing.

So do you think that a dancer can master multiple styles of Oriental dance (or dances inspired by Oriental dance) perhaps in addition also different folk dances with mastery? Why or why not?

 

[Q-Tip]

I think that if you are passionate about something that you have very few limits on what you can achieve and therefore could master more than one style.

I am not in any way saying that if you stick to 1 style that you aren't passionate - I don't mean that at all.

There are people who are so passionate about music that they can play several instruments with perfection. Why is dance any different?

Passion is like a river that flows through your soul. It doesn't really matter what the passion is for. (IE: music, dance, poetry)


just my rookie opinion.....

 

[sedoniaraqs]

I think its not so much that knowing one style keeps one from or detract from the ability to learn another -- I think the human brain and body of most people has potentials that most of us never fully tap.

Its a time thing. I don't practice my Egyptian dance enough as it is; how could I possibly take up another style that is significantly different until such a time as I can significantly increase the time I have to spend at each.

For the same reasons, I almost constantly think about taking up violin study again, and constantly talk myself out of it.

Sedonia

 

[Maria_Aya]

If we speak about "Mastering" it goes only to one style if we speak special for Arabic/Egyptian style. There are so many things to learn that even one life time is not enough !!
But because to master this you got to know also some of the folk dances of the specific countries i can add these folk dances also.

Now about the other styles not sure as I feel (i dont know them more than a viewer) that are much more limited from arabic style. So maybe someone can do more than 1 same time.

Maria Aya

 

[Gia al Qamar]

I have been blessed to study Egyptian, Turkish and American style with some of the best teachers from 'here' and 'there'! It's not a far stretch to know the variations of a moment as it pertains to style once you have a good solid foundation in classic Middle Eastern dance of any kind!
Gia

 

[Salome]

Now about the other styles not sure as I feel (i dont know them more than a viewer) that are much more limited from arabic style. So maybe someone can do more than 1 same time.

Hi Maria,

In what ways do you feel Lebanese, Turkish, American etc. are less complex - more limited than Egyptian?

 

[Maria_Aya]

Hi Maria,

In what ways do you feel Lebanese, Turkish, American etc. are less complex - more limited than Egyptian?

Because of the massiveness of history of contaimporaine Egyptian dance, that even if we all agree that have a life of just 100 or even less years cant even compaire with the KNOWN history of the other styles.

I'l explain:

Lebanese dance: what we know about this style?
The today dancer knows mostly the Lebanese dancers from the last 10 years of LBC shows. From the people that KNOW lebanese these forms of dance are not considered authentic lebanese but a mish-mash of sexual/tv promotion for mostly Saudi clients.
Kind of earlier dancers as Samara (who is Iraqi) and Amani (Lebanese) are the ones to study for. (Samara is in jail actualy now as accused "kidnaping" her son and getting out of Lebanon (bad divorce case)).
Nadia Gamal was actualy greek-egyptian even if in the mind of most of us (and yes indeed) she is the epitomy of older Lebanese style.
Before her what we have to study as footage?
Styles? Beduine Lebanese and Dabke (personal dont know more, i would love to explore it).

Turkish style:
Beside the today turkish dancers that actual all turks complain that they dont dance turkish style but a mix of turkish/arabic/jazz we have the unbeatable Nesrin Top Kapi to study for Oryental Tanzu, and Selma Yildiz for more oldish styles and a type of Romani Havasi.
As styles there are Oryental Tanzu, Ottoman (who really knows how it was as we dont have footage?) and types of Romani Havasi. Karsilama and Zeybek are more folk dances.

American Cabaret style:
Pls correct me and inform me more if I have it wrong.
Started evolving after the Rain Fare back 100 years ago.
Have a big history in States with many different formats but the Am Cab routine for dancing is one, even if each dancer had her/his different.
Sword, Veil / Double veil, great Cymbal Playing and more, and its evolving.

Egypt:
Where to start from???????????
For me mastering means this:
Learn the bellydance styles that we can learn today from the thousends of footage that exist, and from teachers that still live and can pass bits of their knowledge.
At least the way I feel it and think of it, for someone to know and dance Egyptian dance have to know various styles of Egyptian that are connected with egyptian bellydance style:
Awalim style (Mohamed Ali's street 30's style)
Ghawazee
Saidi with and without assaya, from the raw style of the Saidi's, to the refined reda style
Golden era style studying the dancers of that Era
60's style
80's style
the last 15 years Cairo modern style.
Each style have 70 % different movement vocabulary than the others and way to approach the music and the dance.
We are speaking about more than 60 dancers that each one of them needs years to study them.
To have the knowledge in ear, in mind, in culture to respond to the music as a native (if possible) to the taqasims of the ney, accordeon, kanoon, saxophone. To react to the drum's in a physical/mental and not teqnical way.
To be able to understand full the egyptian rythms (basic rythms more than 10, not getting into more up to 80 for egypt only)
To know and recognize the styles at least:
Simsimaya, Melaya Leyf, Sha'aby, and more.
Reda style is a whole different story but someone even if dont practice it have to know about it.
To have studied egyptian music not to play it but know what is what and who is who, songs, composers what they meant for their era and the egyptians.
To be able to sense the uniqness of Oum Kolthoum and what this woman meant for all the arab world and more for the egyptians.
To know how the egyptian audience react to specific dance gestures and what make them wrong or correct to use them.
To know even the last sylabus of our lyrics and what they mean (dont even getting into the subject we have to know at least basic arabic).
A style of dance that is sooooooooo connected with the culture that we have to know it.
Its not about studying with a teacher egyptian style, you got to feel/sense like an egyptian to do it correct. There is no imitation here, no teqnick needed, the most beautiful egyptian dancers are in the people and have no teqnick but you see them and cry.
Thats why for me its not even comparable in difficulty of mastering with other styles.
And many times I wish i had never met this style cause now i just dont have life out of it. And feel that one life is not enough to capture the beauty of this dance form. I feel that I just have done the first step in this huge Avenue and I dont even see the end of it. Dont know still what this road have to give. Everyday speaking with natives, at forums, at my trips at Egypt I discover more and more mysteries...
Just my opinion

Maria Aya

p.s. funny greek saying:
You cant fit 2 watermelons under one armpit lol (and not even one manytimes lol)

 

[janaki]

In my opinion style is like your invidual personality. There is only one style a dancer can master if you are serious about dancing and wanna do it properly like a true artist. As Maria said it where on earth do you have so much time to learn other styles.

 

[Kashmir]

The different oriental styles don't seem to be that widely apart. Many seem to be down to where the weigh is, minor variations in movement vocab and posture, attitude and prop use. Given time and inclination, I think a good dancer should be able to perform a range of oriental styles very well.

Folkoric is a whole different area. I've been told there are over a hundred variations in debke alone. I've personally decided to concentrate on Egyptian folklore (cutting out debke, shikkat, Tunisian etc etc to start with). But just in Egypt there is sa`iidi (minor variations by region, big variation by sex), ghawazee (multiple styles), Bedouin (yes there are Bedouin living in Egypt) including Haggalah (ie as per Mersa Matruh), fellahi (as far as I know only info has been filtered via Reda and Firqa Kawmiyya - but it is there), Bamboutiyeh (Port Said), Nubian (many styles), tanoura and zar, then there's the old ‘awâlim style, a range of things thrown in the "beledi" basket, the brand spanking new meleya lef (multiple styles), the slightly older raqs sham’idân ... a person would have to dedicate their life to master this one country alone. And then you see people offering "all styles" - grr

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance, etc.

Dear Forum members,
If we look at dance as a small part of the picture of an entire culture, then I think it is difficult to become a master at more than a few kinds of dances. For example, I have studied many, many different kinds of Middle Eastern/ North African dance and fusion offshoots, including but not limited to Greek folkloric, Turkish Kashlama and other other folkloric dances, Turkish Rom, American Oriental, Egyptian, Turkish and Lebanese belly dance, Lebanese and Palestinian Debke,. various styles of Raqs Beledi including assaya, shamadan, and dancing with sagat. I have studied Ouled Nail, Persian classical dances, Shikhat and Tunisian... to name SOME of the styles that I have delved into.
I consider myself to have enough knowledge to be considered some kind of an "expert" in exactly two areas of dance; Egyptian belly dance and Gulf/ Saudi dance.
No, I do not believe that anyone can have true expertise in dozens of kinds of dances, because the cultural issue alone would stand in the way of a true understanding of all of these different types of dance. And, without the cultural essence and spirit, we are simply not doing the dances!
Regards,
A'isha

 

[sedoniaraqs]

I will say that when I read claims made by dancers that they can perform/teach Egyptian, Lebanese, and Turkish belly dance my BS radar goes off immediately.

I won't say it *can't* be done, only that most people who would make this claim are likely not experts at any of them, or probably even able to recognize the different styles if they see them.

Sedonia

 

[janaki]

I will say that when I read claims made by dancers that they can perform/teach Egyptian, Lebanese, and Turkish belly dance my BS radar goes off immediately.

I won't say it *can't* be done, only that most people who would make this claim are likely not experts at any of them, or probably even able to recognize the different styles if they see them.

Sedonia

Hey Sedonia, can you pls use your BS radar services in BDPD? I agree with your second statement about the so called experts. We hav a teachers in HK. She claims that she studied in Egypt and Turkey and she has certifications:shok: and stuff. Once in a performace she asked the performer why she was tossing her hair like crazy( the performer was dancing zar).

 

[chryssanthi sahar]

I think it really depends on what you mean with "mastering" one style. If your goal is to master the entire parts of a style (Stage version, folkloric version, folk dances, different styles of the stage version, different time periods etc.), then it is impossible to master more than one style. But if your goal is to master parts of a style (let's say stage version of a certain period and folkloric version of some areas as well as 1-2 folks dances), then IMO it is possible to master more than one style. Me for example surely can dance the classical modern Egyptian Raqs Sharqi (this means the style of the early 70ies to the early 90ies) quite well, as well as the folkloric stuff which belongs to a Egyptian routine of that period (Raqs el Assaya, Baladi, Raqs el Sagat -zills-), but I am not a big expert on Khaleegy (which has become very popular in the modern Egyptian routine since the middle of the 90ies) and I definitely don't dance the modern Cairo Raqs Sharqi (well, actually the differences between those styles are rather subtle, but nevertheless....). I also don't dance Egyptian folk dances, but do I have to? There are no possibilities to perform them anyway, except maybe very rarely at a stage show. But since I mainly get hired to perform Raqs Sharqi, this is what I have concentrated on. On the other hand, I am surely an expert on Greek Tsifteteli, because I've been brought up with it. And I'm not talking here about my own Greek-Arabian fusion, which I call "Tsifteteli Oriental", but I'm talking about the traditional Asia Minor style Greek Tsifteteli, which I learned from my grandparents who came from there. And then, I dance and teach also some fantasy and fusion stuff, like for example veil dance (plus that I can dance also the Arabian way with the veil), sword dance, floor dance etc. You can check out my videos on youtube, there I have performances of all those different styles and stuff I'm talking about here
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
But I would never dare to tell that I have mastered the entire parts of all of those styles (except Greek Tsifteteli which is not such a wide field anyway).
So I really think it is a matter of interpretation. On the other hand, if a dancers tells that she can do many styles, she should prove it, performing all of those styles and putting videos on youtube (or selling videos where she performs all of those styles), where the difference between the styles is obvious. Talking is useless, if you can not prove by doing what you are talking about.
By the way, have a look at my new video with fantasy veil dance:

 

[Kharmine]

What a pretty group, CS! Y'all look like a bunch of moving flowers!

I think an experienced, competent, versatile dance teacher can demonstrate the differences between the styles, but I rather doubt anyone can be an expert in more than two or three because it takes years to master a single art.

(OTOH, my mother was a ballroom dance teacher and an expert in more than a few styles -- so I dunno, maybe it depends on the teacher and the styles.)

Maria, I think you're confusing American Cabaret with tribal. If I remember what I've read correctly, Tribal got its start with groups performing in a fantasy style at Renaissance fairs in Northern California starting in the late 1970s or early '80s.

What I know for sure is that what we call today Cabaret/Restaurant/Nightclub/American Oriental evolved starting in the 1960s and mostly on the East Coast where Americans learned belly dance from a variety of immigrants, children of immigrants and imported performers in the ethnic supper clubs that served Turkish, Greek, Armenian and Middle Eastern communities.

These early American pioneers went on to refine their styles as more teachers became available; some went abroad to the ME,Turkey and Greece to learn more. "AmCab" could be a mix of styles, or predominately one style, it all depended on how the dancer learned -- but it was just plain old "belly dance" for decades in the U.S. until someone gave it a name to distinguish its glitzier style from the emerging "earthier" style.

 

[Shanazel]

Can a dancer master diverse styles? Depends on the dancer, I suppose.

Maria, the Am Cab I see younger dancers doing today and the old-style Am Cab that I teach look very different. I'm not sure it is so much the result of an evolution as it is an actual divergence in style. New is very heavy on pops, locks, fancy torso tricks; old is smoother, more emphasis on undulation. I don't know enough about tribal style to come to a firm opinion about it, but it seems American Tribal has had a lot of influence on the new style AmCab .

If I am wandering off topic, I apologize.

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Shira has suggested we refer to the "old-school" American Cabaret as "American Classic" or "American Classic Cabaret" bellydance to separate it from what I consider to be "Egyptianized American Cabaret" of today.

(remember when all you knew it as was just plain ol' "bellydance" ? LOL. simpler times, those!)

 

[Shanazel]

I like the term Classic Am Cab, but wasn't sure anyone would know what the heck I was talking about. I'm less fond of the term "Egyptianized" since it ignores Turkish and other influences on the style.

 

[Miranda Phoenix]

I believe, given the unlimited resources of time, access to teachers, and passion, some people could master (any definition you wish) as many BD styles as they wished.

Most of us, however, have only a limited amount of time, restricted access to teachers, and a passion weighed and watered down by everything else that life is; therefore, REALISTICALLY, I would say that the ability to master multiple styles is limited, simply because our resources are limited.

I have to say, though (from my baby belly dancer perspective), I just don't "get" the absolute need to embrace/understand an entire culture to be able to successfully understand and perform a single dance from that culture. I know many of you are strong proponents of that stance, but I don't, at this time, share it.

Maybe later when I have more experience, I'll understand it more clearly, but for now... I just don't believe that I am incapable of learning, mastering and excelling at any particular dance simply because I haven't immersed myself in the culture from which the dance arose. If I did, with my boundless passion but my very limited finances and time, I wouldn't have the heart to take up the art to begin with.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Dance etc.

I believe, given the unlimited resources of time, access to teachers, and passion, some people could master (any definition you wish) as many BD styles as they wished.

Most of us, however, have only a limited amount of time, restricted access to teachers, and a passion weighed and watered down by everything else that life is; therefore, REALISTICALLY, I would say that the ability to master multiple styles is limited, simply because our resources are limited.

I have to say, though (from my baby belly dancer perspective), I just don't "get" the absolute need to embrace/understand an entire culture to be able to successfully understand and perform a single dance from that culture. I know many of you are strong proponents of that stance, but I don't, at this time, share it.

Maybe later when I have more experience, I'll understand it more clearly, but for now... I just don't believe that I am incapable of learning, mastering and excelling at any particular dance simply because I haven't immersed myself in the culture from which the dance arose. If I did, with my boundless passion but my very limited finances and time, I wouldn't have the heart to take up the art to begin with.

Dear Auntie Crazy,
In order to understand belly dance, we must first have some understanding of the cultures and peoples from which it springs. Its cultural elements are what gives the dance is life, soul, its way of interpreting the music, etc. Yes, with time you may have a deeper understanding of it, but if not, there are many fusion styles out there that might attract you more than authentic ethnic belly dance. There is nothing wrong with that either as long as you are truthful with yourself and your audiences abut what you are doing. With a little knowledge under your belt, you might even develop a fusion style, who knows? ( Then people can argue about stuff like "Well, that is REALLY Auntie Crazy Sharghi because the dancer is just putting her feet too close together", or whatever.)
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Miranda Phoenix]

Dear Auntie Crazy,
In order to understand belly dance, we must first have some understanding of the cultures and peoples from which it springs. Its cultural elements are what gives the dance is life, soul, its way of interpreting the music, etc. Yes, with time you may have a deeper understanding of it, but if not, there are many fusion styles out there that might attract you more than authentic ethnic belly dance. There is nothing wrong with that either as long as you are truthful with yourself and your audiences abut what you are doing. With a little knowledge under your belt, you might even develop a fusion style, who knows? ( Then people can argue about stuff like "Well, that is REALLY Auntie Crazy Sharghi because the dancer is just putting her feet too close together", or whatever.)
Regards,
A'isha

First, A'isha, I want to say that you ended your post on a very amusing note. That I should be so blessed!! *smile* (Although "too close together" implies faulty technique - surely, if I've created something then, by definition, it is the "right way" for that creation, correct? *grin!*)

Normally, I don't get into in-depth discussions online because they often devolve into meaningless repetitions, however, dance is near and dear to my heart and I want all the info/understanding I can get my hands on, so...

To rephrase and clarify - in your estimation, I cannot learn "authentic ethnic belly dance" without "some understanding of the cultures and peoples from which it springs" and, if I'm not willing/able to do so, I should limit myself to some type of fusion belly dance?

Can we define "authentic ethnic belly dance"? (I am assuming for the sake of this discussion that, due to its relatively short history, this will not include anything originating in the US.)

Also, "some understanding" could mean anything from reading about its history to visiting the country of origin to studying that culture from within for several years...

I have an awfully analytical mind and the more specific a concept/discussion is, the easier I am able to understand it. Thank you so much for your indulgence!