Israel & Palestine

[Nejmeh]

So, finally I`m gonna pop the question...I`m curious, what do you know about it, where did you get your info, do you have an opinion about it and what opinion does the gp in your country seem to have ?

Before we start, I know this is a touchy subject, so I would like to ask everybody to keep it clean, decent and respectful. Please remember that this is not a theoretical issue, both sides have lost loved ones, and both sides feel passionate about it, so, in this case, yes, words can hurt, you never know who is reading with us.
This might sound a bit kindergarten teacher-y, and I hope it will be totally abundant, but it`s very important for me that we show respect for each other in this matter.


As for me, my biological dad was Palestinian, so thats my link and original interest. On the other family side, my grandfather was in the resistance in wo2, so that makes a cool combo! I however only had contact with my palestinian grandma, so everything I know came from my mom or from books(tip: The Lemon tree, The other side of israel and poetry from Darwish), movies(tip: paradise now), internet and talks with people. And I have been there once.
To put it simple, two nations are fighting over the same piece of land, dragging religion into the fight and kicking humanity out(on BOTH sides)
My opinion on the whole matter is quite simple, stop fighting! Their are few things left to win and so many lives to loose, unless they learn to live together this situation will keep ruining the lives of children, family, people on both sides. I also hope thats the solution, that the youth will get tired of it and will start talking to each other instead of about each other.

The gp here, well, thats shifting. When i was young I sometimes had to debate whether or not Palestinians existed and the main feeling was that Israel was right. If you were for the palestinians your were called a racist, a anti sematic, terrorist etc. After the Gaza attack, that shifted, but I`m not yet quite sure to what...

 

[Greek Bonfire]

I agree with you - I hope they could stop fighting and learn to live together. That's about all I want to say on the matter.

There is a book I read a few years ago called "The Haj" and I was quite interested in how the actual people themselves feel on this subject, how privately most people want to get along, but politically, they can't. I don't know how accurate it is but from a human standpoint I was pretty impressed.

 

[Erik]

I am reminded of an interview with Yassir Arafat, and I think it was Larry King who asked him if he ever thought that someday Israeli children and Palestinian children would play together. Afarat answered quickly with something that broke my heart. He said, "When I was a child, we did."

Israel has been a nation only twice in history, and Palestine never has been a nation. Before I die I would like very much to see two independent nations living in peace. And if that seems like Don Quixote dreaming the impossible dream, then okay, but I would still like to see it.

 

[charlieL]

Facts: Most of people living in Palestine was nearly 85%, the rest were christians and jews, just because a group of fundamentalists, fanatic jews believed that Palestine belonged to the jews was the reason for the actual problems in Palestine; the jews killed the palestines, they theft their land, for every jew death there are 100 palestines death. Jews and zionists are the culprits of the actual situation, they are abusers, criminals. Despite all this, i think the only possible solution is the division of Palestine in 2 states, but the problem is that the jews want all the territory including territory of Lebanon, Egypt, Syria,...

 

[Ariadne]

My POV on the subject is very simple.

ANYONE who celebrates the death of children is WRONG.

I don't believe it is necessary to take sides, just because one side is wrong does not make the other automatically right, so each sides actions speak for themselves.

 

[Belly Love]

ANYONE who celebrates the death of children is WRONG.

I would have to agree with this statement. Is this referring to something specifically from either side?

I have lived in the States all of my life and have never been to the Middle East. I don't know very much about the cultures of the two other than what I occaisonally read in magazines and see on the news. All that comes to mind are images of war and women having little rights*. I don't even know the differences between the two or really understand what their conflicts are. Unfortunately, besides my friends from the Middle East, I don't know anyone personally who would know either.

*I realize this is not wholly representative of either the cultures. It just happens to be all I hear about.

 

[charlieL]

I would have to agree with this statement. Is this referring to something specifically from either side?

I have lived in the States all of my life and have never been to the Middle East. I don't know very much about the cultures of the two other than what I occaisonally read in magazines and see on the news. All that comes to mind are images of war and women having little rights*. I don't even know the differences between the two or really understand what their conflicts are. Unfortunately, besides my friends from the Middle East, I don't know anyone personally who would know either.

*I realize this is not wholly representative of either the cultures. It just happens to be all I hear about.

Jews and zionists are the root for the actual situation.

 

[Ariadne]

I would have to agree with this statement. Is this referring to something specifically from either side?

On the 11th of March someone snuck into a Jewish community and not only killed the parents but stabbed and slit the throats of three children ages 11, 4, and 4 months... 4 months! The next day in Gaza City, Nablus, Jenin, and Rafah people handed out candies and baklava in celebration. Since then the Palestinians for the most part have decried it but when asked who is responsible they blame not the murderers but the "occupation". Both sides have lost people (and children) to artillery attacks but blaming the victims for their own murder is like saying that a rape or assault victim deserved what they got for "not being careful", "dressing provocatively", or just "presenting a temptation." It reminds me of spouse abusers who ask their victims "why do you have to make me angry"... and then put them in the hospital.

Wrong is wrong, no excuses, no exceptions. Celebrating someone else's pain is wrong. Blaming someone for another's actions is wrong. Just being on the other side does not make you right. ANY actions like that should be condemned, ANY perpetrator held personally responsible.

 

[Amulya]

Nejmeh, I also grew up in Holland and Holland used to be very pro-Israel*. My parents always boycotted Israeli products so I grew up more Palestinian orientated I guess.
At high school I did an assignment regarding Israel/Palestine where both sides where being looked at. Some examples are how the Israeli government was racist at a certain point where Jews and Palestinians were not allowed to marry, Palestinians landowners selling land to Jewish settlers but leaving the people who leased that land without land because the Jewish people wanted to use it for their own and not lease it out to those farmers. Apparently in the beginning with the first settlers things used to be ok and people lived peacefully side by side. I can imagine that after the state of Israel was declared, Palestinian people felt left out and lost.
I find it a very difficult subject and I am sure nearly everybody agrees on that...

I have a friend who lives in Israel, so I often get updates from that side, not that he agrees with what his country does! Sometimes things that come out in the news outside of Israel get twisted around a bit according to him. I don't know to which extend though.
I really hate how Israel makes settlements on Palestinian ground, sabotage things like olive crops etc by cutting down farmers trees, sending rockets into already destroyed areas. But also the other way round, why do you need to blow up people in buses? So hard, I can imagine how it feels for both sides, but people need to wake up and be civilized with each other

*No idea where Holland stands now exactly:

The gp here, well, thats shifting. When i was young I sometimes had to debate whether or not Palestinians existed and the main feeling was that Israel was right. If you were for the palestinians your were called a racist, a anti sematic, terrorist etc. After the Gaza attack, that shifted, but I`m not yet quite sure to what...

Yes, I remember that. When I was born my parents didn't even dare to tell people where my name came from (which is another name than Amulya, which I keep private) because they were afraid that they would be called anti-Israel. Now the funny thing is that my family name is a common name in Israel LOL. So yes, it used to be quite a hot topic in Holland
I have a feeling that things have changed, but how, no idea. Maybe some other Dutch people can give insight?

 

[Amulya]

I just wanted to share a funny story my Israeli friend told me:

He bought a bucket of paint and went home by train. When he wanted to get off the train he looked for the bucket and it was gone. He asked the train-guard what happened to it. The man said that some lady thought it was a bomb and she threw it out of the window at another train station! Imagine if it was a bomb, you don't throw it out on a train station's platform :shok:
My friend was rather pissed off about his paint, he traveled all the way to a big city to get it.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

Jews and zionists are the root for the actual situation.

Now you will have to go back thousands of years, Charlie, because this is the beginning of the argument. Jews will argue that the land was given to them by God. Since that time, this is a situation that has been going on - the Jews will say the Palestinians stole their land and vice versa. It's not a cut and dried answer but something that is very, very complicated and will take a miracle to sort through.

I wouldn't be surprised to hear, however, that the everyday Jews and Palestinians would like to try to find a way to live in peace but extremists keep the war cry going.

 

[charlieL]

For those who say that both parts are responsible ignoring that the jews/zionists are the main responsible for the actual situation in middle east i recommend to search for this; you can use wikipedia, google, whatever source you like:

Sabra and Chatilla massacre, nabka day, operation grapes of wrath, shelling of Qana, operation cast lead and a long etc, etc. Israel is an abusive and terrorist state.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

For those who say that both parts are responsible ignoring that the jews/zionists are the main responsible for the actual situation in middle east i recommend to search for this; you can use wikipedia, google, whatever source you like:

Sabra and Chatilla massacre, nabka day, operation grapes of wrath, shelling of Qana, operation cast lead and a long etc, etc. Israel is an abusive and terrorist state.

Charlie, this was supposed to be a polite thread but you are anything but polite.

 

[Amulya]

I wouldn't be surprised to hear, however, that the everyday Jews and Palestinians would like to try to find a way to live in peace but extremists keep the war cry going.

Most people there want that. Sometimes it is just a few who make the rest sound bad.

 

[Nejmeh]

For those who say that both parts are responsible ignoring that the jews/zionists are the main responsible for the actual situation in middle east i recommend to search for this; you can use wikipedia, google, whatever source you like:

Sabra and Chatilla massacre, nabka day, operation grapes of wrath, shelling of Qana, operation cast lead and a long etc, etc. Israel is an abusive and terrorist state.

Charlie, as I said, I know this can provoke some emotions, but this is not being respectfull and since I don`t think you care much about that, it`s not productive, I know, from experience; No one will listen to your arguments if you trow them in someone`s face, no matter what your intentions may be. Please, take it down a notch.

Besides that, please make a distinction between Jews(the people, either religious or not) and Zionists(the political and sociological ideology that Israel should belong to the jewish people as a safe haven). You can be a Jew without supporting the zionist cause, as you can be a zionist without being a Jew. The words are not interchangeable, nor do they mean the same. Claiming it does will offend a lot of jews, and stands on the same idea for me as calling every muslim a terrorist.

As for responsibility, yes, both sides have it, though they don`t have equal options in which way they can be responsible. As for the Palestinian side, they are trying to take it and are very aware of the neccesity. All over the territories you can see voluntary projects emerge which are dedicated to making mence and peace. I agree that the balance is off, but if we ever want a longlasting peace, both sides will have to give way and at least teach the children not to hate.

@ariadne/bellylove: Since I have the impression BL doens`t have much info about it, I want to add another example of child murders on the other side; the recent gaza war(us calls it attack right?), the Israeli army bombed schools( and hospitals)with specialty bombs, causing many infant dead. Yes, officialy they bombed those school because there was a terrorist supposed to be inside. The palestinian population claims that wasn`t true for most of the cases. In the end, at least 1300 palestinians and 13 Israeli lost their lives
The reaction on the murders of the jewish family could perhaps be explained by these events. I am certainly not saying the reaction is correct(moraly) but psychological it has a background.

@ amulya: hey, funny, my surname is palestinian and yes, your parents did right in not revealing its origin. Which is actually a nice example of how things shifted here, when I was very young I used to say the name was from Israel(since arab already gave me weird looks), then it became Arab and only since about 5 years I dare to say it`s palestinian, but it still depends on who is asking.
I find it very hard to grasp the feelings about it here in holland, perhaps also because I`m a little bit too close. Their was a petition though about a month ago for the AH(a supermarket, for the non dutchies) in which they demanded that all Israeli products would be boycotted from the fairtrade line. I guess that would have been unthinkable 20 years ago.

 

[seona]

If we look at modern history, didn't the trouble start after the Balfour declaration (a British policy to establish a Jewish homeland in Palestin) In the early 1900's? I'm under the understanding that both sides lived peacefully together prior to that.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I think this is an interesting documentary by a respected travel writer.

It gives a glimpse into the life of both sides on the West bank.

YouTube - Louis Theroux The Ultra Zionists - Part 1-2 Documentary on Jewish Zionist

 

[seona]

I think this is an interesting documentary by a respected travel writer.

It gives a glimpse into the life of both sides on the West bank.

YouTube - Louis Theroux The Ultra Zionists - Part 1-2 Documentary on Jewish Zionist

I had this doc in mind as I read this thread, I'm glad you posted it.
This is really worth watching indeed, it gives a view of what's going on there at the present moment.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

I tend to stay out of discussions like this. However, all I will say is that the establishment of the State of Israel was doomed for failure right from the beginning if the intention was to have a state where Jews could live in peace. You can't establish a state in a country that is already heavily populated and not expect conflict. Sharing the land 50/50 sounds good on paper, but when the reality is that the indigenous population makes up over 75% of the population this is also unacceptable.

The biblical argument also does not hold water well. For example, it doesn't take into account that the non Jewish people living there at the time are the descendants of people who converted from Judaism to Christianity 2,000 years ago, or people who converted from Christianity and Judaism to Islam over 1,000 years ago. Nor does it take into account that many people who identify as Jews today are infact descendants of people with no ancestral origins in that land who converted to Judaism hundreds of years ago. Nor does it take into account the fact that there were always non Jewish/Hebrew peoples living in the land even 2,000 yrs agao. Religious pedigree is no foundation to make such a decision on.

Lets just suppose though that the Zionists who went to Palestine to create a new state were all descendants of people who lived there 2,000yrs ago, does that give them the right to return and displace the current population? For those of us who live in the United States, we all know who was living here before the MAyflower landed and we all know how the West was won and who this land belonged to 500yrs ago. If the Algonquin peoples descended on NYC demanding that it be given back to them and all the peoples of Long Island, Brooklyn Queens, Bronx, Staten ISland and MAnhatten leave their houses, apartments, jobs and businesses and move to New Jersey, what do you think would happen? If by some chance they actually did manage to get control of NYC and expell most of the population and the remainder had to live in refugee camps in sight of the towns they once lived in and see people living in the homes that were once theirs, how do you think they would react?
So when we see Palestinians commiting acts of violence, yes, it is wrong, but it didn't just happen overnight. You have to ask, what brought them to the point where they felt that those actions were an option?

Its a tragic situation because now you have people living there on both sides who have no other place to go. They're painted into a corner and it keeps getting smaller and smaller.

 

[Ariadne]

If we look at modern history, didn't the trouble start after the Balfour declaration (a British policy to establish a Jewish homeland in Palestin) In the early 1900's? I'm under the understanding that both sides lived peacefully together prior to that.

Not really. The area was already growing well before that with migrants of all kinds including both Jews and Arabs. The growth was caused by an ongoing migration of Jews moving back into the area on their own, being productive, which then encouraged other growth and commerce. This growth continued up to post WWI.

The root started pre-WWII as Arab nationalists who were rebelling against foreign rule found allies in Germany. The leaders of this movement were trained by the German SS and engaged in the same atrocities in the Middle-east as Germany did in Europe. One of these Arab leaders while living in Germany during the war became personally involved in the Holocaust. The anti-Jew movement in the Middle-east can be traced to this beginning as from the get go they stirred up public sentiment against them, even stating right at the ending of WWII that the reports of the Holocaust were greatly exaggerated and were being inflated for political reasons. One of their leaders even came out in a speech and said that it was important that they deny any holocaust at all and manipulate public opinion against the Jews since it would be more effective that fighting them. Many of the currant dictators in the Middle-east have credible links with this faction (several Nazi war criminals fled to the middle-east post WWII where they were given refuge) and "Mein Kampf" is still a best selling book there.

It doesn't help of course that Israel was created by the UN at a time that anti-Imperialism was so strong, and really still is. This gives it two strikes against it between both anti-Semitic and anti-Imperial politics.


@ Tarik: Your example doesn't hold up since every credible source I have found on the subject said that it wasn't the Jews that kicked the "Palestinians" out of Israel but that they were told to leave by the Arab nations before their invasion and that they are still living in camps because those same nations have told them they are not welcome in their countries and if they want one of their own they have to take Israel. It would be more accurate to compare all the Algonquin peoples moving to NYC, demanded to be allowed to rename it and have it legally changed into Indian Nation land, then an anti-Indian group telling everyone else they should leave so when they go into to kill the natives they won't get in the way.