He said what?!

[Imeera]

This is the worst part!!! She is REALLY good and so many dancers look up to her.

What can we do? Just dance, and dance with dignity, and not dress or behave like hookers... :naghty: <=== do I look patronizing enough? :lol:

I do prefer to err on the side of modesty, I can choose more coverage, so yes so goood to have a choice! Besides I just love masses of babric, feels and looks so rich and lush, much better than skimpy bra and a mini- skirt...

I know, I was one of them But exactly, you can't do anything. Its good we can choose but some go really overboard.

Pardon my french but what the HECK was that?!?!

and did you read the comments under the youtube video? people were actually commenting on her boobs (which is what she seemed to have wanted form what i saw of that video)
i actually performed to that first song that she "danced' to, a few weeks ago, and all the smart-alleck in me kept thinking was "oh really? THAT"S how your supposed to dance a beledi? okay good to know"
because it said that she has a studio and that she actually teaches?

Question: if you want to dance like that, why not teach pole dance or burlesque? both are valid forms of dance/aerobics nowadays anyway. Why corrupt a cultural art like ME dance by dancing like that?

I don't think she cares what she is doing. I think its "belly dance" because its so much more mysterious and different than pole dance or burlesque. But the least she could do was dance properly :shok:

 

[Sherezade]

I think this misconception comes from the fact that people tend to mix things or see one as the whole. Bellydance, the traditional one, is sensual, sexy and beautiful. I don't think I'd be here if bellydance was all about what this last lady does. Even burlesque and striptease can be distorted. Ok, both are meant to be quite teasing, but there are also strippers and strippers. Some take it as an art and do it in a natural way. Others are definitely common. I remember zapping the TV once and came across a scene where a woman was pole-dancing and stripping at the same time. It was so natural and sensual I couldn't find anything obscene in it. Then we know of strippers who dance like dogs in heat and that, for me, is ugly. I guess it's like the difference between eroticism and porno. At least to me, eroticism is sensual and sexy. Porno is rude and ugly.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

I think this misconception comes from the fact that people tend to mix things or see one as the whole. Bellydance, the traditional one, is sensual, sexy and beautiful.

That is a personal opinion...some of it was but some of it wasnt. How do you know? are you judgeing dance in the ME based on the films? if so, I think this is were the real misconception comes from. What most people think is the 'real' belly dance is something which was created in a film studio and bears little relevance to the belly dance of the people.. that was the whole point actually.

I don't think I'd be here if bellydance was all about what this last lady does.

And there in lies the reason why so many people who enter this dance prefer to deny the exsistence of the elephant in the room.

Even burlesque and striptease can be distorted. Ok, both are meant to be quite teasing, but there are also strippers and strippers. Some take it as an art and do it in a natural way.

Personally, I dont think stripping is an art or belly dance.. they are forms of entertainment and skill and determination is needed with both...contrary to popular belief.

Others are definitely common. I remember zapping the TV once and came across a scene where a woman was pole-dancing and stripping at the same time. It was so natural and sensual I couldn't find anything obscene in it. Then we know of strippers who dance like dogs in heat and that, for me, is ugly. I guess it's like the difference between eroticism and porno. At least to me, eroticism is sensual and sexy. Porno is rude and ugly.

Bad dancing is ugly even if it is intended as art by the performer.

 

[Sherezade]

No, Caroline, I'm not judging based on films, because I can't even remember any films I've seen which include bd. I was judging on the few dancers I've seen, either on DVD, TV or even youtube. I'm still giving my first steps in bd, it's true but I think I can already distinguish the traditional - or if you prefer the dancers I've seen and some of them mentioned in this forum by people who know more than me - from this last lady who doesn't have, in my opinion, a single graceful movement.

As to burlesque and stripping, I still see them as an art, but I respect your opinion.

I agree with your last sentence about bad dancing.

I don't think I got the elephant thing, sorry.

 

[Caroline_afifi]

[

QUOTE=Sherezade;180630]No, Caroline, I'm not judging based on films, because I can't even remember any films I've seen which include bd. I was judging on the few dancers I've seen, either on DVD, TV or even youtube. I'm still giving my first steps in bd, it's true but I think I can already distinguish the traditional - or if you prefer the dancers I've seen and some of them mentioned in this forum by people who know more than me - from this last lady who doesn't have, in my opinion, a single graceful movement.

I just think we ned to take care about what we judge as traditional and 'the real art' etc. in the years I have been dancing I have not stopped learning and questioning.. it is a very important process.

As to burlesque and stripping, I still see them as an art, but I respect your opinion.

ditto

I agree with your last sentence about bad dancing.

lol, I think most would.. or at least hope so!

I don't think I got the elephant thing, sorry.

[/QUOTE]

The elephant in the room is the part of this dance I think most wish would disappear.. it is the side of this dance which is about perofrming the female sex through dance. We can dress it up in academic lanaguage but we can never shake this aspect of the dances history as it's entwined beyond belief.

Whether it's Dina, a club dancer or a foreign dancer in Cairo.. you can be sure of one of the thing.. they all know how to sex it up and use their sexuality and sensuality through their movement...just like Samia did (in context to her generation). We can dance around this issue all day but we really have to stop ignoring it. We can choose not to play to those aspects, many do.. but we cannot deny they exsist or say it's not real.

 

[Sherezade]

Thank you for your explanation and advice. Perhaps I should have explained that when I said traditional, I meant those styles we usually associate to Egypt, Morocco, Turkey and so on, where bd originally comes from. But ok, I admit I'm still new and have a lot to learn.

 

[Reen.Blom]

However i think there is a HUUUGE difference between being a sexy dancer and using dance to sell sexual services? Like get sex clients through dancing?

This might be a sad reality, and I agree that to ignore it is like to try and ignore the elephant, however to call it sexual liberation instead of prostitution?

Can you really equate Samia's dancing with that of wedding dancer or even Dina's? Maybe I am missing some particularily raunchy video clip of Samia's?

If not, I undertstand you mean that to Samias contemporaries her dancing was like to us Dina's?

And yes I would be someone to tend to want to separate the art of dance from prostitution, and not say that it is the natural sensual aspect of it.

The self deceiving part is to call it 'sensual' or 'natually sexy' or 'real' when it is just over-sexualized dancing of a prostitute.

 

[Sherezade]

I decided to investigate on the topic and found out an interesting article about why some people associate belly dance to stripping. It's quite long, but worth reading and I wanted to share it with you.

Belly Dancing: "Isn't That Like Stripping?" (Why They Ask)

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Lady Kashmir

Hang on ladies. This person "Lady Kashmir" is an absolute menace to the Midwest and to bellydance in general.

Her performances are disgusting, but that's not the half of it. She has repeatedly tried to "bank on" the good names of RESPECTABLE dancers in Ohio, like the beautiful Deniz
Middle Eastern Belly Dancing - Dayton, Ohio

and Kira, of Kira's Oasis. She actually went so far as to include prominent dancers and Kira's Oasis NAMES in her website's meta keywords, so if you searched for Kira's Oasis, HER site would come up!

Kira is a WELL respected member of the community and was just sick when she found out.

"Lady Kashmir" is no more a bellydancer than I am the prime minister of Canada. NEVER link to her videos if you can avoid it -- she feeds on the publicity and the hits.

Now that I've mentioned her name, I'll give her around 3 days before she shows up here and starts calling us all haters and stalkers. She's disgusting.

 

[Reen.Blom]

Hang on ladies. This person "Lady Kashmir" is an absolute menace to the Midwest and to bellydance in general.

I love how you put it? :lol::lol::lol:

I think Kira should try and find out who is the lady hosting her site with? And write to them that she is 'impersonating' them or smth... Chances are if there are lots of complaints the hosting provider will issue a warning or smth or might even suspend the site, cos it is in terms and conditions of hosting normally that you are not allowed to impersonate or have offensive stuff etc.

also youtube videos must be flagged as inappropriate. :naghty:

 

[Caroline_afifi]

However i think there is a HUUUGE difference between being a sexy dancer and using dance to sell sexual services? Like get sex clients through dancing?

Of course, but dancers accuse club dancers of all being like that and we get accused by the general public.. we dont have to accept it of course but some of us really need to stop doing it to others too.

This might be a sad reality, and I agree that to ignore it is like to try and ignore the elephant, however to call it sexual liberation instead of prostitution?

Sexy dancing is not prostitution and vice versa.. sexual liberation.. I seriously doubt.

Can you really equate Samia's dancing with that of wedding dancer or even Dina's? Maybe I am missing some particularily raunchy video clip of Samia's?

Who know's what Samia danced like in nightclubs? she had exactly the same background to the wedding dancers of today.. she made good through Badia's club and went into movies. Her personal life was on par with Liz Taylor and the costume and movement was eryu provocative and naugty for it's day...even in some films. The films are not realistic..

If not, I undertstand you mean that to Samias contemporaries her dancing was like to us Dina's?

Dont compare the dancing but it's impact on the public at that time.

And yes I would be someone to tend to want to separate the art of dance from prostitution, and not say that it is the natural sensual aspect of it.

The self deceiving part is to call it 'sensual' or 'natually sexy' or 'real' when it is just over-sexualized dancing of a prostitute.

Let's not forget that Dina has had her fair share of scandals and prostituion has little to do with dancing.. it is the act of selling sex.. dance is the act of displaying sexual allure.. whatever type of dancing it is, it is a mating ritual, isnt it? lol

 

[gisela]

Cheri Berens has some interesting articles on this subject.
About making the dance more appreciated as a proffesional and high standard dance form:wanted_professional_bellydancer_bellydance_costumes_bellydance_dvds

About the "connection" and confusion with prostitution:
belly_dance_prostitution_belly_dance_dvds_videos_tapes.html

Several other articles I haven't yet read:
belly_dance_dvds_videos_tapes_information_about_belly_dance.html

 

[Caroline_afifi]

...mmmm :think:

I have just quicky read through the Cheri Berens articles, I have to say, some of the important issues appear to be glossed over...especially the perception of some of those dancers.
I guess there was not so much 'research' here and perhaps alot of inherited opinion.. which can easily be picked up in Egypt without a second thought?

I am judging this at a glance and stuff that leapt out at me.

Some of it doesnt sit right with me.. she uses words like 'seedy'..a word which comes up time and time again (particularly in the media), with nothing to back it except value judgements and a personal feeling/opinion.

I agree with some of her observations but wished there was more depth to some of her opinions and analysis.

There are so many people out there talking about good/bad, right wrong, classy/sleazy.. it all smacks of the virgin and the whore stuff.
The core seems to be the same but there seems to be issues about how we dress that up? where does that come from?

I thought the bit about dancing in underwear was interesting.. another example of dressing up the 'core'.. throw a few beads on and its not a 'bra' it's a 'bedlah'. It's a tacky bazaar purchase or a $600 Eman.. we buy into this lock stock and barrel.

When will we just learn to cut through the bull or at least attempt to make sense of this without just throwing moralistic opinions at it.. I am a good girl and you are not etc. lol

 

[Reen.Blom]

Of course, but dancers accuse club dancers of all being like that and we get accused by the general public.. we dont have to accept it of course but some of us really need to stop doing it to others too.

What you are trying to say, is that either

1) such accusations have no ground
2) accusations have ground, but who we are to judge?

or rather.... 3)their manner of dancing has nothing to do with their prostituting?


I believe their lewd dancing has a LOT to do with prostituting. And to me this is exactly what they do -- use the dance to sell their bodies.

I dont see the dance being soooo lewd in itself. It transfroms from sexy into lewd when private bits starts showing for one.... :lol::lol::lol:

It is like those ballerinas dancing in the nude, it is not ballet that is so sexy, but it is them being naked...


As for judging... well... they know full well what they are up to, and make a choice, and in Dina's case her fame is fed by scandals

And yes, if I see a dancer dancing without skirt(remembering someone dance in the belt and no skirt), I will be the one to get up and say... look she is naked!!!! And not say... who am I to moralize.... :naghty::naghty::naghty:

 

[gisela]

I believe their lewd dancing has a LOT to do with prostituting. And to me this is exactly what they do -- use the dance to sell their bodies.

I don't quite get what you are trying to say. Do you mean you think that those who dance in a lewd way ARE prostitutes, or that they might as well be, or that they are prostitutes in the sense that they use their bodies to make tips when dancing, hence "selling" their bodies? Or are you just calling those you think are lewd, whores?


Those dancers who make enough money from dancing alone I don't see why they would be prostitutes. Who would want to sell sex if they can dance and get paid?

 

[Caroline_afifi]

But Reen,

See it from another point of view.. I am posing questions here.. if we complain about people percieving us as prostitutes then why point the fingers at others and do the same, how does that help?

Dancing in general is a way of selling sex..yes or no?
That does not mean all dancers are selling sex.

Just because someone dances in a nightclub does not automatically mean they sell sex.. just because someone is in a five star does not mean they dont.. get my point?

 

[Amanda (was Aziyade)]

Caroline, what did you think of Ansuya's comment in the BDSS clip upthread?

 

[Caroline_afifi]

which one was that?

 

[Caroline_afifi]

ok, I found it but which one is Ansuya?

I think I know now..

mm.. Belly dancing is not an American invention for female liberation and the removal of clothes has nothing to do with this dance.

I agree with Jillina with regards to her response.

I dont think we can say 'belly dancing is 'this'..'
I think it has many purposes and fuction depending on the context but ultimately it has a deep connection with the sexual side of human nature..as with many forms of dance.

Having said that, there is no exuse for individuals to use it as a 'freedom of expression' and do things in the name of this dance culture they would perhaps not do in their own.

It often becomes an Oriental fantasy exuse to pour your hormones out to everyone and anyone who will watch.. maturbation by any other name.

I also think masturbation on the dance floor and prostitution are still two very seperate issues.

 

[Reen.Blom]

I don't quite get what you are trying to say. Do you mean you think that those who dance in a lewd way ARE prostitutes, or that they might as well be, or that they are prostitutes in the sense that they use their bodies to make tips when dancing, hence "selling" their bodies? Or are you just calling those you think are lewd, whores?

No I actually specifically refer to the clips posted earlier, eg the wedding dancer letting her breasts hang out of the top.

I am referring to the fact that there are plenty of dancers who are prostitutes and use dance to sell their bodies. I guess for them it is means of survival?

I feel sorry for them, that they maybe have no other choice? However I might not necessarily like them using the dance (dancing in a lewd way) to sell their services?

And I think it is a different story when for a dancer it is NOT the means of survival, but in certain cases a chance to get scandalous media coverage? Whatever they do privately is one thing, but to take it on the dance floor?