Feminism, Feminists (Spin Off on Sadie/Kaya Thread)

Kashmir

New member
I think in some ways things have sometimes become the other way round: women can do a lot of the same things as men now, but the other way round? For example, do you often see stay at home dad's? I have heard from a lot of guys they would like that, but society thinks it's strange. I have even heard people saying 'that is unnatural', what :shok:!? Unnatural? Why? It's apparently harder for men to get part time jobs too.
We get a few in NZ - but really mostly University educated; yet to hear of a stay-at-home plumber dad. Here parental leave can be shared between partners (14 weeks paid, 52 weeks unpaid)

But overall, I still think there are more restrictions on women's activities than men's - both socially and in the workforce. Pay parity for instance is still a long way off.
 

Amulya

Moderator
What is pay parity?

My mothers friends' daughter lives in Norway and things have been arrange so well: her daughter could choose from 9 months fully paid leave or 12 months lesser paid leave, her husband could also take it instead. So she took the 9 months and could get back into her old job :).

My primary school friend in Holland has arranged it so that she and her husband work both 4 days, have one day the grand parents look after the child and 2 days child center. They are very happy about this arrangement and both take equal care of their son: a very happy little boy who's always smiling.
 

Daimona

Moderator
I'm not going to interfere in the debate, just make a comment as Amulya mentioned it...

My mothers friends' daughter lives in Norway and things have been arrange so well: her daughter could choose from 9 months fully paid leave or 12 months lesser paid leave, her husband could also take it instead. So she took the 9 months and could get back into her old job :).
Yep! It is very common. The system isn't perfect, but compared to other systems it appears as very good to me for both the parents and the child.
If you are interested in reading more about the Norwegian system, a friend of mine wrote about it in her blog a while ago.

magnio said:
Expecting mothers get minimum 3 weeks leave before the due date, and must take a 6 week leave after birth. If she gives birth before the due date, 3 weeks are deducted anyway, and if it's after due date, the actual period (e.g. 4 weeks) is deducted. The period after birth is for medical reasons, and cannot be waived.

Fathers have their own quota of 10 weeks leave. If they don't take these weeks, the family generally looses them, as they can only be transferred to the mother in very rare cases (mostly due to sickness). The employer cannot deny the father the right to take this period off.

The remaining 27 weeks can be split as the family desires.
Follow the link to my friends blogpost to read the whole post..
 

Greek Bonfire

Well-known member
What is pay parity?

My mothers friends' daughter lives in Norway and things have been arrange so well: her daughter could choose from 9 months fully paid leave or 12 months lesser paid leave, her husband could also take it instead. So she took the 9 months and could get back into her old job :).

My primary school friend in Holland has arranged it so that she and her husband work both 4 days, have one day the grand parents look after the child and 2 days child center. They are very happy about this arrangement and both take equal care of their son: a very happy little boy who's always smiling.
The USA could learn something from this - we have a horrible health system here, and women have to leave the hospital the next day after delivery! Not to mention, six weeks leave from work, and that comes out of her sick and vacation pay. Same thing with other health related issues. Don't get me started. . .
 

Kashmir

New member
What is pay parity?
Pay parity is the same pay for the same training, skills and responsibilities. So, yes, if you are working as a pre-school teacher you get the same pay whether you are male or female. But if there is a similar job which is mostly male there maybe a higher pay scale because it is traditionally male. Can't think of one off the top of my head (been years since I've done work in this area) - but say it was a police officer (from what some of my friends say - very similar :D ), then with pay parity pre-school teachers would be linked to police officers.
 

Ariadne

Well-known member
Marital fidelity and sexual restraint are concepts of morality generally attended to by religion. Feminism is aimed at political and social equality of humanity. That being said, I do know pagan feminists who call on Hera as the goddess of marriage and view the institution as absolutely sacred. Also know some Christian and Jewish feminists who feel the same way. That work for you?

(I really do enjoy our discussions, Ariadne. Thanks for joining in.)
(I'm glad you enjoy them, I worry about that with such a sensitive issue.)

I will agree that I know many proclaimed feminists who do value marriage however I am talking about the movements themselves and the stated values therein. I will also agree that marital fidelity and sexual restraint are the arena of religion however... when a social movement takes a stand on those very issues then they involve themselves in them. Every Feminist movement I am familiar with has stands on both. Sexual restraint is remarked as being of no importance but rather the opposite, that by being sexually unrestrained the woman involved has been "liberated". It is the same with marriage, the stated value is that it is of little importance. A woman may or may not choose to enter it and if she grows dissatisfied she may leave at any time; assuming that marriage is not simply decried altogether by that particular type of feminism as an outdated patriarchal oligarchy. This devaluing of both sexual restraint and marital fidelity sets itself in direct opposition to the "religious" traditional values.

With that said I am afraid my request still stands, a "type of mainstream feminism (currant) that teaches sexual restraint and marital fidelity" as opposed to individuals inside them that may or may not agree with specific parts of those tenants. If I met a person who lived the "ideals" 100% and was the perfect example of that particular belief set would they have either of those two values (and preferably both)? Honestly if that type of feminism exists I would like to know because I have never heard of it.
 

Shanazel

Super Moderator
It is a sensitive subject, but it is a pleasure to discuss it with an intelligent, articulate person.

Sexual restraint is remarked as being of no importance but rather the opposite, that by being sexually unrestrained the woman involved has been "liberated". It is the same with marriage, the stated value is that it is of little importance. A woman may or may not choose to enter it and if she grows dissatisfied she may leave at any time; assuming that marriage is not simply decried altogether by that particular type of feminism as an outdated patriarchal oligarchy. This devaluing of both sexual restraint and marital fidelity sets itself in direct opposition to the "religious" traditional values.
This is indeed the viewpoint of more than one feminist. No argument from me there. It is not, however, the viewpoint of all of them. The individuals in our society deserve to be heard as clearly and taken as seriously as "mainstream" groups. I am an unaffiliated pagan and an unaffiliated feminist who prefers not to follow the traditions of any established group. Lack of affiliation doesn't nullify a person's viewpoint.

I do tend to agree with de Beauvoir's contention that Judeo-Christain tradition is "savagely anti-feminine." When a husband and wife became one, that one was legally and socially the man. A man was able to divorce his wife more easily than vice versa, and the children of the relationship belonged to him. Religion stressed the value of a woman as wife, mother, vessel, helpmate, and expected her to submit unto her husband as her husband submitted to God.

When women first began to really break free of social and religious taboos in the sixties and seventies, a lot of them were like the kid with a new bicycle who rides it down the steepest hill in San Francisco to see how fast it will go. They went to what I consider extremes, but then I am a relatively reserved person.
Unlike de Beauvoir, I chose to marry and have children, but I chose a life partner whose views on social and political and religious equality were similar to my own.

I don't know of a formal Judeo-Christain feminist movement, but I am not familiar with even a portion of the movements personally. However, if you type "Judeo-Christain feminist movement" into your server, you will come up with any number of traditionally religious feminists writing on a large number of topics. If you decide to do this, I'd be interested in knowing what you find.
 
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