Do you think that restaurant dancers should have employment contracts?

[worlddancer12]

Just something that I have thought about since becoming a restaurant dancer. I think it would be worth exploring. What do you think?

 

[Shanazel]

Coming from a legal background (12 years as a civil litigation paralegal), I like employment contracts that spell out expectations and obligations for both parties. The only contracts I ever signed myself were those related to my dancers performing at specific venues. I didn't want them to perform and then have the venue provider back out of paying them or paying less than agreed upon. That happened to me a time or two because I was too young and shy to stand up for myself, and I didn't want it happening to people under my supervision.

Welcome to OD, by the way.

 

[Tourbeau]

In a perfect world, every gig would have a contract with insurance protecting it in the event of catastrophe, every dancer would be designated as a small business by whatever metric their jurisdiction specified, all music would be licensed and used as directed by intellectual property laws, and any money changing hands would be reported properly on all sides as required for tax purposes.

<pause for uproarious laughter>

I think it is perfectly sensible to want a contract, and depending on a critical mass of professional dancers where you are, it might be feasible to get one, but in many places, asking for a contract would only result in your employer finding a "lower-maintenance" dancer (and there are always way more of them out there than quality dancers with standards and scruples).

Truth be told, both sides enjoy operating like this to some extent. People hiring dancers like being able to dump the current performer when a "better" one comes along, and up-and-comers like being able to push out the more established dancers who "hog all the good gigs." Of course, nobody wants to hire an unreliable performer, and senior dancers don't like losing their jobs to pushy noobs with low expectations, but...that's showbiz.

It's a sloppy, ugly, cutthroat business and it's pretty much always been this way, because neither side has historically had much respect for this type of performing. When the dance community itself can't come together to agree it deserves respect, job security, and fair compensation for reaching a level of skill that has earned the right to be called "professional," the "critical mass" can't form and it never gets the leverage to demand better working conditions from employers who often aren't very discriminating. Most people looking to hire a dancer are working on a tight budget (restaurants with small profit margins, community facilities who expect performers to volunteer, non-profit events, parties where the hosts are always looking for a corner to cut, etc.), and a lot of audiences honestly don't care about extensive training and nuanced musical interpretation, because a pretty, thin, young woman enthusiastically shaking fringe is "fun" and "entertaining" enough to get by as far as they're concerned.

I think wanting a performing contract is noble and reasonable, and I support your jousting at that windmill. I'm just a little confused by why you also "This"-ed a 15-year-old thread today, which is some of the most vitriolic content I have seen here and should have been left to fade into a distant memory. Are you in favor of publicly marginalizing "bad" dancers, and is this part of what is prompting you to ask this question here? I'm not asking because I'm trying to trick you into spilling the tea on some problematic dancer you know. I'm admitting that I was ready to report a random new username that "This"-ed twice in a haterade-filled zombie thread out of nowhere, before I saw you had also started a thread with a legitimate question.

 

[Shanazel]

Sometimes newbies cruising through the back files don't notice the dates of threads that interest them. The zombie thread from nowhere was one I mercifully didn't remember, though we have been treated to equally unpleasant "conversations" in years past. I am less tolerant of in-your-face obnoxiousness than some past moderators, dispense warnings quickly, and banish those who continue abuse soon thereafter. Be forewarned, all ye who enter here with ulterior motives and bones to pick.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

Restaurants aren't the only ones who try nasty stuff. When negotiating on booking private parties, some vendors try to get around the contract angle with an agent, or slip in some extra provisions from the dancer not originally specified. When I get asked or receive a bid, more and more, I answer with a figurative tongue in cheek because there is more of this stuff than actual bookings, at least in my experience. But that's also in the corporate world, and as much as I actually like my corporate job, I don't work for free.

 

[Shanazel]

It's the old complaint of every performing artist who ever lived: far from offering reasonable compensation for services, too many potential employers expect to be thanked for giving the artist a place to perform pro bono. A friend who worked as an exotic dancer in Seattle and Houston in the eighties said that in most places, dancers had to pay venue owners a stage fee in order to perform therein. Dancers existed on their tips, which could be remarkably good, but even so... There have been multiple attempts to form unions and other entities to protect the rights of exotic dancers and sex workers, but I don't know any that have been effective. (That isn't to say there isn't one; I haven't checked in years.)

 

[worlddancer12]

Coming from a legal background (12 years as a civil litigation paralegal), I like employment contracts that spell out expectations and obligations for both parties. The only contracts I ever signed myself were those related to my dancers performing at specific venues. I didn't want them to perform and then have the venue provider back out of paying them or paying less than agreed upon. That happened to me a time or two because I was too young and shy to stand up for myself, and I didn't want it happening to people under my supervision.

Welcome to OD, by the way.

Sometimes newbies cruising through the back files don't notice the dates of threads that interest them. The zombie thread from nowhere was one I mercifully didn't remember, though we have been treated to equally unpleasant "conversations" in years past. I am less tolerant of in-your-face obnoxiousness than some past moderators, dispense warnings quickly, and banish those who continue abuse soon thereafter. Be forewarned, all ye who enter here with ulterior motives and bones to pick.

Hi thanks for replying. I do apologize for commenting on that thread. I'd commented something else but couldn't delete it so had to edit it. Having had a negative experience with the person written about I was surprised to see that thread about the IP address being one and the same person. It answered alot of questions that I can't go into. No I try not to focus on negative things about dancers that's not why I commented. I think there is a place for everyone.

 

[worlddancer12]

It's the old complaint of every performing artist who ever lived: far from offering reasonable compensation for services, too many potential employers expect to be thanked for giving the artist a place to perform pro bono. A friend who worked as an exotic dancer in Seattle and Houston in the eighties said that in most places, dancers had to pay venue owners a stage fee in order to perform therein. Dancers existed on their tips, which could be remarkably good, but even so... There have been multiple attempts to form unions and other entities to protect the rights of exotic dancers and sex workers, but I don't know any that have been effective. (That isn't to say there isn't one; I haven't checked in years.)

Oh that's interesting to read that some performers had to pay the venue owners . Hmmm it's something I've thought about alot as I know other professional dancers who dance on cruise ships and have contracts although the pay wasn't good. Ect. Thanks for replying

 

[worlddancer12]

Hi thanks for replying. I do apologize for commenting on that thread. I'd commented something else but couldn't delete it so had to edit it. Having had a negative experience with the person written about I was surprised to see that thread about the IP address being one and the same person. It answered alot of questions that I can't go into. No I try not to focus on negative things about dancers that's not why I commented. I think there is a place for everyone.

Yes I understand that you wanted to look after your dancers after your experience. I've had the same in the past

In a perfect world, every gig would have a contract with insurance protecting it in the event of catastrophe, every dancer would be designated as a small business by whatever metric their jurisdiction specified, all music would be licensed and used as directed by intellectual property laws, and any money changing hands would be reported properly on all sides as required for tax purposes.

<pause for uproarious laughter>

I think it is perfectly sensible to want a contract, and depending on a critical mass of professional dancers where you are, it might be feasible to get one, but in many places, asking for a contract would only result in your employer finding a "lower-maintenance" dancer (and there are always way more of them out there than quality dancers with standards and scruples).

Truth be told, both sides enjoy operating like this to some extent. People hiring dancers like being able to dump the current performer when a "better" one comes along, and up-and-comers like being able to push out the more established dancers who "hog all the good gigs." Of course, nobody wants to hire an unreliable performer, and senior dancers don't like losing their jobs to pushy noobs with low expectations, but...that's showbiz.

It's a sloppy, ugly, cutthroat business and it's pretty much always been this way, because neither side has historically had much respect for this type of performing. When the dance community itself can't come together to agree it deserves respect, job security, and fair compensation for reaching a level of skill that has earned the right to be called "professional," the "critical mass" can't form and it never gets the leverage to demand better working conditions from employers who often aren't very discriminating. Most people looking to hire a dancer are working on a tight budget (restaurants with small profit margins, community facilities who expect performers to volunteer, non-profit events, parties where the hosts are always looking for a corner to cut, etc.), and a lot of audiences honestly don't care about extensive training and nuanced musical interpretation, because a pretty, thin, young woman enthusiastically shaking fringe is "fun" and "entertaining" enough to get by as far as they're concerned.

I think wanting a performing contract is noble and reasonable, and I support your jousting at that windmill. I'm just a little confused by why you also "This"-ed a 15-year-old thread today, which is some of the most vitriolic content I have seen here and should have been left to fade into a distant memory. Are you in favor of publicly marginalizing "bad" dancers, and is this part of what is prompting you to ask this question here? I'm not asking because I'm trying to trick you into spilling the tea on some problematic dancer you know. I'm admitting that I was ready to report a random new username that "This"-ed twice in a haterade-filled zombie thread out of nowhere, before I saw you had also started a thread with a legitimate question.

Oh I may have replied to your reply on someone else's reply. I'm not used to forums. I have answered about zombie thread. Well you hit the nail on the head. I had a not so good experience with the person spoken about on that thread. I was surprised to read about IP addresses being one and the same. It answered a question I had. Anyway I had second thoughts and tried to delete the original comment that I had published but couldn't so just edited it. If there was a way to delete it I would apologies about that. No it wasn't a nice thread actually quite unfair what was being said about the dancer if I'm honest but I'm sure there may have been another reason why people took a dislike to her beyond just the dancers technique or looks. Not a nice person if on the wrong side of her and that wrong could be something so small. Bully in my opinion. So I can see why people may have been angry. That said it's not any different to how she has treated several people I know personally.

Anyway Back to this thread. Thanks for replying you made some good points. It is a fickle world in dance and not for sensitive people which is a shame as there are some lovely dancers who dont get work at restaurants but are class acts compared to some who do. I'm not judging as I believe there is a place for everyone. I just think it wouldn't be so fickle if dancers had contracts. It may be fair.

 

[worlddancer12]

Hi thanks for replying. I do apologize for commenting on that thread. I'd commented something else but couldn't delete it so had to edit it. Having had a negative experience with the person written about I was surprised to see that thread about the IP address being one and the same person. It answered alot of questions that I can't go into. No I try not to focus on negative things about dancers that's not why I commented. I think there is a place for everyone.

Thanks for welcoming me to.

 

[worlddancer12]

Restaurants aren't the only ones who try nasty stuff. When negotiating on booking private parties, some vendors try to get around the contract angle with an agent, or slip in some extra provisions from the dancer not originally specified. When I get asked or receive a bid, more and more, I answer with a figurative tongue in cheek because there is more of this stuff than actual bookings, at least in my experience. But that's also in the corporate world, and as much as I actually like my corporate job, I don't work for free.

Yes the same I have another job that I get paid no problem and no one questions the price and happy to pay but in dance it's totally different. If rather not dance for pennies at restaurants it's not worth the effort. Probably not the best attitude to have to get ahead.

 

[worlddancer12]

Oh that's interesting to read that some performers had to pay the venue owners . Hmmm it's something I've thought about alot as I know other professional dancers who dance on cruise ships and have contracts although the pay wasn't good. Ect. Thanks for replying

Ps. The dancers I know who did cruise ships ect where not belly dancers

 

[worlddancer12]

Hi everyone thanks for taking the time to put your opinions across.

 

[Zorba]

I was house dancer at a restaurant for a year. Almost ZERO promotion was done by the restaurant owner, as a result, that particular experiment failed. On the one or two occasions she *did* do some promotion, the house was packed. That's the "nice but clueless" type of restaurant owner.

Another type is a complete backstabbing idiot. A Greek restaurant that my wife and I were *very* regulars at didn't have Belly Dancers at all - much to everyone's amazement. The owner hired two, then refused to pay them after their performance. I told him, "You better pay them." - "They didn't bring in the expected traffic". "Really? My wife and I alone spent enough to cover what you were going to pay them!" "Nope, not paying." So I told him, "Then this is gonna cost you - how much money have my wife and I alone spent with you in just the last year? You're blowing it big time, because you're now going to LOSE one Hell of a lot more money than you agreed to pay my dance sisters as we won't be back and I *WILL* tell people why not."

Never darkened the door of the place again - and that was too bad because it was good food and good times.

 

[worlddancer12]

Not great that the restaurant owner didn't want to pay the dancers and a shame as they lost your custom and respect. I have met a few like that or they try to give you half the agreed amount or make you wait around for your money. Its something I started doing when I first started up on my own. I've considered getting back into but the more I hear or read the more I'm put off.

 

[Shanazel]

Then there are the polar opposites. My first gig was with my teacher in a small lodge in a logging and ranching area up in the mountains. As a newbie, I wasn't charging the owners. We drove up in a howling blizzard, expecting little or no audience because of the weather. The place was full, if not completely packed. The owner of the place insisted on paying me, even after my teacher and I explained the situation. She said without us, it would've been a dead night and I had earned my paycheck.

 

[worlddancer12]

Then there are the polar opposites. My first gig was with my teacher in a small lodge in a logging and ranching area up in the mountains. As a newbie, I wasn't charging the owners. We drove up in a howling blizzard, expecting little or no audience because of the weather. The place was full, if not completely packed. The owner of the place insisted on paying me, even after my teacher and I explained the situation. She said without us, it would've been a dead night and I had earned my paycheck.

Nice to hear about your more positive experience.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

I was house dancer at a restaurant for a year. Almost ZERO promotion was done by the restaurant owner, as a result, that particular experiment failed. On the one or two occasions she *did* do some promotion, the house was packed. That's the "nice but clueless" type of restaurant owner.

Another type is a complete backstabbing idiot. A Greek restaurant that my wife and I were *very* regulars at didn't have Belly Dancers at all - much to everyone's amazement. The owner hired two, then refused to pay them after their performance. I told him, "You better pay them." - "They didn't bring in the expected traffic". "Really? My wife and I alone spent enough to cover what you were going to pay them!" "Nope, not paying." So I told him, "Then this is gonna cost you - how much money have my wife and I alone spent with you in just the last year? You're blowing it big time, because you're now going to LOSE one Hell of a lot more money than you agreed to pay my dance sisters as we won't be back and I *WILL* tell people why not."

Never darkened the door of the place again - and that was too bad because it was good food and good times.

I hope they paid dearly for their thievery. What a royal malaka!

As for the "free exposure" theory, I have to requote the famous comeback: You could die from exposure.

 

[Zorba]

I hope they paid dearly for their thievery. What a royal malaka!

I told him he was a Malakas and a To Ktinos as well! It was $50/each - our tab was over $100 that nite.

 

[Shanazel]

Nice to hear about your more positive experience.

The people who ran the lodge weren't all that well off financially. They worked hard for their money and didn't have any intentions of taking advantage (as they saw it) of an equally hard working dancer.