Definition of Belly Dance

[SophiaSzoli]

I'm new to this form of dance and to the forum, so forgive me if I sound ignorant on the subject, but it seems the more I read and watch the more confused I get. There's a lot of opinions out there as to what defines belly dance. For example, I've watched quite a few performances on youtube with comments from others that say "this isn't authentic" or "there is very little belly dancing in this performance" while some say the exact opposite about the same video.

So...
What is your definition of belly dance? What makes belly dance true belly dance? What makes a performance or "style" not a true belly dance? Is there a specific give-away move that makes or breaks it? A costume? Music?

Here's my view on the subject so far (I'm still developing my views)...
I personally find it hard to pinpoint anything that could be considered "authentic" due to the debates surrounding the origin. I think of it almost like ballroom dancing in that there are different styles that are acceptable in the category (salsa, tango, waltz, etc.) but they're all considered ballroom dancing. They all evolve and add new elements almost every year, otherwise it would be a very stale dance. Just my opinion thus far...

 

[maria_harlequin]

I think of it almost like ballroom dancing in that there are different styles that are acceptable in the category (salsa, tango, waltz, etc.) but they're all considered ballroom dancing. They all evolve and add new elements almost every year, otherwise it would be a very stale dance. Just my opinion thus far...

Salsa isn't ball room dancing. In terms of international competition dancesport there is a very clear cut set of rules of what is acceptable and what isn't and they don't just add new elements to it in every year. I'm not an expert in the field of ballroom myself but one of my best friends is the top dancesport dancer in the country and I've been following her competitions for years.

For me, belly dancing isn't just a set of moves. It's a sum of its movements, music, and a deep understanding of the culture of the region whether you're studying Egyptian or Turkish and you retain the essence when you do it. You can't just dress up in a sparkly bedlah and dance to Shakira and call it belly dancing. "ATS Belly dance" isn't belly dancing (I'm also an ATS dancer) and neither is Tribal Fusion.

I think Aisha can explain it better than I can! You can also look at some of the older threads.

 

[cathy]

Dear Sophia,

There was a lengthy discussion of this issue on Bhuz last month called "The Essence of Belly Dance: IT IS vs. IT IS NOT".

The Essence of Belly Dance: IT IS vs IT IS NOT - Page 5 - BELLYDANCE CENTRAL - Everything Belly Dance! Welcome to BHUZ - Biggest Online BellyDancing Community


On page 5, post #128, someone actually posted a fairly detailed and interesting diagram titled Dances with Roots in Middle Eastern Dance, with folk and social dances that originated in the ME on the right, "belly dance" in the middle, then intentional fusion on the left, with interlocking circles, triangles, and squares.

As you will see this is a subject that people spend years or even decades discussing and dissecting.

Myself, I don't use this term at all which spares me from having to define it I study Egyptian style Raks Sharki otherwise known as Oriental dance. It's part of the smallest and most central triangle in that diagram.

Enjoy!

Cathy

 

[cathy]

Here's another Bhuz thread from last month discussing the same issues:

Spinoff: To dance or not to dance, that's the question - BELLYDANCE CENTRAL - Everything Belly Dance! Welcome to BHUZ - Biggest Online BellyDancing Community

DaVid posed the following questions:

- - - - - - -
1. Does doing Bellydance equal Middle Eastern dance and representation of such?
2. Should non-Middle Easterners represent Middle Eastern culture and heritage?
3. How restricted is a dancer by the cultural aspect of the dance?
4. Is it possible to seggregate the dance technique and artistic expression from the cultural connotations it comes with?
5. If Bellydance equals Middle Eastern dance - where do Fusion and American Cabaret Bellydance fit into the picture?
6. Are other styles developed and practiced outside of the Middle East just as valid as dance styles from the Middle East?
- - - - - - - -

It got sidetracked slightly into the related issue of "Do Middle Easterners hear music differently"

Cathy

 

[SophiaSzoli]

Well, I included Salsa in with the ballroom dancing because every competition I've been in there always seems to be a Salsa division... I've not been to too many so this may just be the types of competitions I've been to so far and not accepted on an international level as proper.
The question I'm going to ask is probably going to sound wrong (it's the fact that I'm typing instead of actually asking it in person) but if ATS isn't belly dance, then what is? If it's not belly dance, shouldn't it be called something else, then? Or is it belly dance and just not "authentic"?
ACK! *throws hands up in the air* I'm about to give up on over-analyzation of this subject and just move how I want without worrying about what to call it.

 

[SophiaSzoli]

OMG! Cathy - THANK YOU! That diagram you've directed me to is awesome! That totally helps.
Since posting this thread, I've had a revelation. Why do I have to define what I do? I'm doing it for fun (and one day maybe I'll get paid for performances, small gigs, ya know?) so I've decided to just do what I do, and let other people debate what they want to call it.
It's all about interpretation and feeling (for me anyway...)

 

[maria_harlequin]

Well, I included Salsa in with the ballroom dancing because every competition I've been in there always seems to be a Salsa division... I've not been to too many so this may just be the types of competitions I've been to so far and not accepted on an international level as proper.
The question I'm going to ask is probably going to sound wrong (it's the fact that I'm typing instead of actually asking it in person) but if ATS isn't belly dance, then what is? If it's not belly dance, shouldn't it be called something else, then? Or is it belly dance and just not "authentic"?
ACK! *throws hands up in the air* I'm about to give up on over-analyzation of this subject and just move how I want without worrying about what to call it.

IDSF standards does not include salsa but I'm sure there are ball room competitions that have salsa competitions in it too as you said you have been to them

ATS is a dance form created by Carolena Nerriccio during the 70's which she took elements from flamenco, Indian dances, belly dance, threw in some stuff of her own and created a dance that is truly unique. Whenever I refer to it, I call it "American Tribal Style", but no, it's not belly dance. Why it is not you can probably conclude from reading those threads But ATS is a legitimate art form in itself that should be respected. I LOVE ATS and I'm taking another 5 week course in a week..can't wait! But belly dance (raqs sharqi) it is not.

 

[cathy]

Attempt to upload diagram

 

[Aniseteph]

... Why do I have to define what I do? I'm doing it for fun (and one day maybe I'll get paid for performances, small gigs, ya know?) so I've decided to just do what I do, and let other people debate what they want to call it.
It's all about interpretation and feeling (for me anyway...)

Wow Sophia, you are going for the big topics! (and good for you for thinking about it ).

I don't think you need to define what you do at this stage. Actually IMO it's a good thing to keep an open mind; teacher A's idea of what is and isn't belly dance might be very different to teacher B's. As you learn and hang around places like this you build up a wider picture of what belly dance is and isn't, and how what you do fits in the picture.

But "out there", unless it is a student performance, call it belly dance the general public will believe you because they don't know any different in most cases. Misrepresentation can damage the reputation of the dance, and can really annoy dancers who spend years (and lots of money) trying to do right.

 

[Kashmir]

OMG! Cathy - THANK YOU! That diagram you've directed me to is awesome! That totally helps.

Except it is one person's interpretation/definition - my Venn diagram is a little different and I see the interaction between "belly dance" and "Middle Eastern Dance" quite differently.

For me for it to be "belly dance" it needs the movement vocab (ie circles, eights, undulations, shimmies, layering, isolation etc) but also a specific way of interpreting the music (which would normally be Middle Eastern). Hard to say in words but easier to see it For me, there must be a Middle Eastern connection for it to still be "belly dance" - it doesn't have to be "authentic" or "traditional" but it has to have the ME approach.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Defining belly dance

I'm new to this form of dance and to the forum, so forgive me if I sound ignorant on the subject, but it seems the more I read and watch the more confused I get. There's a lot of opinions out there as to what defines belly dance. For example, I've watched quite a few performances on youtube with comments from others that say "this isn't authentic" or "there is very little belly dancing in this performance" while some say the exact opposite about the same video.

So...
What is your definition of belly dance? What makes belly dance true belly dance? What makes a performance or "style" not a true belly dance? Is there a specific give-away move that makes or breaks it? A costume? Music?

Here's my view on the subject so far (I'm still developing my views)...
I personally find it hard to pinpoint anything that could be considered "authentic" due to the debates surrounding the origin. I think of it almost like ballroom dancing in that there are different styles that are acceptable in the category (salsa, tango, waltz, etc.) but they're all considered ballroom dancing. They all evolve and add new elements almost every year, otherwise it would be a very stale dance. Just my opinion thus far...

Dear Sophia,
The definition of belly dance:

Belly dance is an authentic ETHNIC dance in movement and spirit. The dance and dancer are the physical manifestation of and visual compliment to the Middle Eastern music they accompany. Like ballet, the dance has precise movements based on root concepts. The dancer enjoys a full range of personal expression within the dance.
The dancer's job is to sort of become that music, on cultural, physical and emotional levels. In order for it to be belly dance, the cultural, ethnic aspect of the dance must be in place.

That is why just having fun is not enough to make it belly dance. There is nothing wrong with dancing for fun, but in order for it to be belly dance, all elements must be accounted for.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Amulya]

All About Belly Dancing! Exploring The Art of Middle Eastern Dance! Learn About Belly Dance! is also a site with lots of info, it's worth to have a look

 

[cathy]

Except it is one person's interpretation/definition - my Venn diagram is a little different and I see the interaction between "belly dance" and "Middle Eastern Dance" quite differently.

For me for it to be "belly dance" it needs the movement vocab (ie circles, eights, undulations, shimmies, layering, isolation etc) but also a specific way of interpreting the music (which would normally be Middle Eastern). Hard to say in words but easier to see it For me, there must be a Middle Eastern connection for it to still be "belly dance" - it doesn't have to be "authentic" or "traditional" but it has to have the ME approach.

Hi Kashmir,

I'm just curious.

So your diagram would include only the right half or rightmost third of the circle labelled "belly dance" as such?

In other words, do you include "Folk/Social ME Dance as adapted for an Oriental show" as "belly dance"? They did not use the also controversial term "beledi" (or "shaabi") but I think that is what they were driving at for that very rightmost part of the central circle.

Cathy

 

[shiradotnet]

In other words, do you include "Folk/Social ME Dance as adapted for an Oriental show" as "belly dance"?

I would not consider Reda Troupe or Kawmiyya (or their imitators) as being belly dance. I *would* consider them to be "Middle Eastern dance", but not belly dance.

Also, based on my 3-hour interview with Mahmoud Reda, it's clear that he doesn't consider the dance form he created to be belly dance, either. I incorporated some statements he made about this into the articles I wrote for Zaghareet Magazine that were based on this interview.

But when it comes to a Saidi cane piece or a Khaleegy piece as part of an Oriental dancer's set? Hmmm. I think I would be inclined to say no, that's not belly dance, it's theatricalized folk dance done by an Oriental dance artist. But I'm kind of on the fence - I see good arguments for both sides.

 

[Kharmine]

Belly dance is a cultural hybrid with roots in North Africa, from a variety of folkloric dance traditions -- Tunisian, Algerian, Moroccan, Egyptian, Jordanian, etc. This fusion incorporated Western influence in staging, music, costume and some styling (use of arms, veils, etc.), and yet remains true to Middle Eastern origins.

It also is claimed in Greece and Turkey -- not Middle Eastern countries -- and has its own styles originating out of those countries particularly in the music that accompanies it.

This doesn't mean it's some kind of mishmash, nor that we can expand far beyond its original fusion and still call it belly or Oriental dance. Whatever we choose to call it -- belly dance, Oriental dance, raks sharki, etc. -- it is a coherent dance form with a clear ethnic presentation in style and music, just as is flamenco or salsa.

 

[Kashmir]

Hi Kashmir,

I'm just curious.

So your diagram would include only the right half or rightmost third of the circle labelled "belly dance" as such?

In other words, do you include "Folk/Social ME Dance as adapted for an Oriental show" as "belly dance"? They did not use the also controversial term "beledi" (or "shaabi") but I think that is what they were driving at for that very rightmost part of the central circle.

Cathy

No, I include all solo improvised forms as potentially "belly dance" - so Sa`iidi can be belly dance, Khaleegy can be etc - but not the group folk styles. When I have time I'll tidying it up (currently hand drawn) and post it.

 

[Kharmine]

No, I include all solo improvised forms as potentially "belly dance" - so Sa`iidi can be belly dance, Khaleegy can be etc - but not the group folk styles. When I have time I'll tidying it up (currently hand drawn) and post it.

I see a problem with this. The two dances you mention are particular to very specific ethnic groups in specific regions. Unlike those folk dances, raks sharki is an urban invention and a cultural hybrid -- still Middle Eastern but whose origin is not restricted to a single ethnic group.

 

[Kashmir]

I see a problem with this. The two dances you mention are particular to very specific ethnic groups in specific regions. Unlike those folk dances, raks sharki is an urban invention and a cultural hybrid -- still Middle Eastern but whose origin is not restricted to a single ethnic group.

Yes, but I am not saying that "belly dance" = raqs sharqi. My definition of belly dance is wider - basically ME SITA (Middle Eastern solo improvised torso focused)

 

[Kharmine]

Yes, but I am not saying that "belly dance" = raqs sharqi. My definition of belly dance is wider - basically ME SITA (Middle Eastern solo improvised torso focused)

From what I've been able to tell, the folks in the countries of origin for these folk dances regard them as being quite distinct from the dance form we call belly/Oriental.

Is your re-definition for some specific purpose?

 

[Kashmir]

From what I've been able to tell, the folks in the countries of origin for these folk dances regard them as being quite distinct from the dance form we call belly/Oriental.

Is your re-definition for some specific purpose?

They distinguish them from stage dance - ie raqs sharqi. And yes, they are not raqs sharqi. However, they are the source dance of the bulk of raqs sharqi. And in Egypt, at least, a "belly dancer" will incorporate them in her show - not just in the folk tableau but modified into her Orientale as well.

I believe part of the "not belly dance" tag is because "belly dance" (ie the dance performed in front of men by half-dressed sluts (as one Egyptian woman once described it)) is not something most MEers want to be associated with. What they do in the privacy of their own homes however is "different". But when you actually look at it isn't. The movement vocab overlaps and the feel and interpretation is the same.