Belly Dance in 2022 and Beyond

[Shanazel]

UPDATE: On March 28, 2022, this thread was separated from Selling the Forum thread.


There isn't as much genuine interest in scholarship and skill building as there used to be.

Belly dance was never standardized in terms of styles and vocabulary. That worked well as long as people respected the basic aspects of the dance, but once more dancers than not began to "express themselves" while calling what they did belly dance as long as they wore some version of a bra and hip band, the whole thing started to unravel. Why trouble oneself with technique, musicality, vocabulary, and other boring stuff when what's really important is being true to one's authentic self? (Would anyone like to know how much I have come to dislike the word "authentic"? I didn't think so.)

Some people wander onto forums like this one, discover they aren't going to meet with complete approbation when they manage to intersperse a hip drop into a mishmash of hip hop and pole dancing, and flounce off. Lots of older dancers retired. Other folks enjoyed a couple of years of classes and student performance and wandered on to the next fashionable exercise program. I gave up on social media sites devoted to belly dance because there was more infighting about who was more woke than whom than there was discussion about technique, etc.

My 50 cents worth (2 cents has been adjusted for inflation.)

 

[Zorba]

... more infighting about who was more woke than whom than there was discussion about technique, etc.

THAT crap was going on on Bhuz before it closed down. I didn't make myself popular by pointing out that those who go looking for "offense" will find it.

 

[Suzanne Azhaar]

There's a group on FB that displayed the same 'I'm from over the there, it's in my blood', or ' I hate white people who BD, because I'm from over there', or infighting in general. Can't recall if I just muted or left that group. If the focus isn't in dance then there's no reason for me to be there.

 

[Suzanne Azhaar]

You gotta do whatcha gotta do. I'd rather you sell it than close it, but Goddess only knows what would happen under corporate ownership. As we all know, Belly Dance is joined at the hip with a certain "social media" platform that will never see my presence - yet forums thrive for just about every other subject. I don't get it...

Other forums have allowed individuals to create BD shrines to themselves versus working as a group. (Once fusion happened it was all over. It's gone from bad to worse.)

 

[Greek Bonfire]

There's a group on FB that displayed the same 'I'm from over the there, it's in my blood', or ' I hate white people who BD, because I'm from over there', or infighting in general. Can't recall if I just muted or left that group. If the focus isn't in dance then there's no reason for me to be there.

I have to protest in that what I see is now being danced in Cairo is anything but Middle Eastern, plus the costumes are horrifying. And I agree with you because those who protest that it's in their blood rarely allow their own people to even dance at all.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

There isn't as much genuine interest in scholarship and skill building as there used to be.

Belly dance was never standardized in terms of styles and vocabulary. That worked well as long as people respected the basic aspects of the dance, but once more dancers than not began to "express themselves" while calling what they did belly dance as long as they wore some version of a bra and hip band, the whole thing started to unravel. Why trouble oneself with technique, musicality, vocabulary, and other boring stuff when what's really important is being true to one's authentic self? (Would anyone like to know how much I have come to dislike the word "authentic"? I didn't think so.)

Some people wander onto forums like this one, discover they aren't going to meet with complete approbation when they manage to intersperse a hip drop into a mishmash of hip hop and pole dancing, and flounce off. Lots of older dancers retired. Other folks enjoyed a couple of years of classes and student performance and wandered on to the next fashionable exercise program. I gave up on social media sites devoted to belly dance because there was more infighting about who was more woke than whom than there was discussion about technique, etc.

My 50 cents worth (2 cents has been adjusted for inflation.)

I believe a lot of this nonsense happened because the hafla scene exploded, partly because there were so few professional club venues available where they would get paid if they did it "right" and these haflas pretty much were open season on the authenticity, and in the "name of dance" allow any old thing because no one is getting paid. I can't tell you how many I stopped going to because of this mentality. I'm not saying I'm stellar, but at least people told me I looked like what they came to see.

 

[Zorba]

The official Forum dance song:

 

[Greek Bonfire]

BWHAHAH!!!! >Thwp> you was gone!!

 

[Tourbeau]

I have to protest in that what I see is now being danced in Cairo is anything but Middle Eastern, plus the costumes are horrifying.

From what I'm seeing online, there are basically three things going on dance-wise in Egypt now:

--A substyle of raqs sharqi that has solidified enough that it is at least as much a thing as "AmCab" was, and I think it should be called "E^3" for "Eastern-European Egyptian." You know what I mean...heavily balletic, high energy, and lots of swinging arms and legs.

--The low-end style of raqs sharqi that has always existed...untrained locals, dancers in or on the fringes of sex work, desperate foreigners, and what Egyptians think of as "cabaret."

--Just face it. It's gone and it isn't coming back. The "in" dance style in Egypt today is hip-hop. Egyptian music is almost entirely mahraganat, techno-shaabi, and other fusion styles now, with a few old, lumbering dinosaurs fossilizing around the edges. Did you learn the term "al Jeel" decades ago? Yeah, those singers are still out there trying to find a way to keep doing their same thing but somehow still be relevant. Hey, look! Here's the King and King Maker of the al Jeel Style himself, the guy who discovered or influenced almost every major Egyptian singer of the MTV era, Hamid al Shaeri https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamid_Al_Shaeri ! What's he been up to lately? Oh...

 

[Shanazel]

--Just face it. It's gone and it isn't coming back.

I'm afraid I have to agree, albeit most reluctantly. Maybe someday someone somewhere will decide to resurrect twentieth century-style BD, the way English country dances and 18th century minuets are resurrected by historical reenactors. Ugh. As if I didn't feel fossilized already.

 

[Zorba]

I'm afraid Tourbeau is right. Even here we see nothing but fusion fusion fusion fusion. Some of it good, most of it not. I'm to the point of my life to where I'm now starting to "pass it on" to the next generation. There's not very many of them. It was my honor and privilege to learn at the knee of many a storied old crone - now I'm the crone (so to speak) albeit not "storied".

 

[Greek Bonfire]

Even here, you see a lot of that Eastern European influence although the costumes haven't gone completely to hell, although as was stated in another post, all that leg ornamentation to me is distracting and is on overload.

 

[hippyhips]

I just wanted to point out that there is starting to be a backlash against the EEE Styles of late. I'm seeing a WHOLE lot more interest in golden era styles, golden era dress (with a growing trend in Neo classical). and a genuine interest in wanting to learn from Middle eastern women, AND, many more professional middle eastern women are willing to teach than the the previous 10+ years because of the generated interest in it. a lot of the EEE styles look exactly the same on stage, with only ever slight variations on "moves". this has quickly bored people. The EEE styles have become a style within itself and isn't really considered an "authentic middle eastern style" anymore.

 

[Zorba]

I'm not saying I'm stellar, but at least people told me I looked like what they came to see.

I was once complimented - by a man of all things - on my double veil technique. He said his wife was a retired dancer and used to do double veil, and that "You hit all the high points!". One of the best compliments I've ever received - I was "doing it right".

 

[Greek Bonfire]

I'm not really going to vote, but i just wanted to point out that there is starting to be a backlash against the EEE Styles of late. I'm seeing a WHOLE lot more interest in golden era styles, golden era dress (with a growing trend in Neo classical). and a genuine interest in wanting to learn from Middle eastern women, AND, many more professional middle eastern women are willing to teach than the the previous 10+ years because of the generated interest in it. a lot of the EEE styles look exactly the same on stage, with only ever slight variations on "moves". this has quickly bored people. The EEE styles have become a style within itself and isn't really considered an "authentic middle eastern style" anymore.

You get that silly argument that dance evolves but if it evolves so much that it's unrecognizable, then I would consider that a cancelled culture. The idea of Middle Eastern women teaching westerners how it's done is a great thing but trying to find one to do it is few and far between as the Middle Eastern culture frowns on their women dancing at all, so those in the west are left somewhat floundering and have to learn from others who knew more about the golden era. Sadly, it seems the westerners are trying to save the dance more that the Middle Eastern people.

 

[hippyhips]

You get that silly argument that dance evolves but if it evolves so much that it's unrecognizable, then I would consider that a cancelled culture. The idea of Middle Eastern women teaching westerners how it's done is a great thing but trying to find one to do it is few and far between as the Middle Eastern culture frowns on their women dancing at all, so those in the west are left somewhat floundering and have to learn from others who knew more about the golden era. Sadly, it seems the westerners are trying to save the dance more that the Middle Eastern people.

im not saying anything about dance evolution, it does evolve, and even those who danced in the golden era will have had criticisms that the dance have evolved to be something different than what the older generations remember. as for the eastern European dancers... it has become its own "thing", its own category, and yeah, sadly they still dominate some social media platforms. I do realise how middle eastern people look upon their dancers, but there are now middle eastern women teaching online to westerners and in their own countries, and there more and more popping up, things ARE changing and for the better IMO. this was the crux of my argument, things are changing for the better, people more interested in the original style of dance (with an emphasis on folklore and golden era) rather than being inundated with an eastern European style, which isn't what a lot of people want to learn.

 

[Tourbeau]

You get that silly argument that dance evolves but if it evolves so much that it's unrecognizable, then I would consider that a cancelled culture.

But what can you do as an outsider when the "cancel" is coming from within the culture? As a generalization, young Egyptians Do. Not. Want. The. Old. Stuff. They don't want orchestrated music that follows the traditional forms. They don't want traditional dancing. They don't want poetic lyrics about love and loss. They want lyrics that "speak their truth in their own words" layered over modern, hip-hop-influenced tracks so they can do modern, hip-hop-influenced dancing to it. Unless the Egyptians themselves rise up and reclaim their own artistic traditions like the Hawaiians did, who is going to preserve this?*

...But having said that, I don't know if it is in response to more Egyptian Musicians' Syndicate drama or something else, but I'm starting to encounter a few young mahraganat artists (Houda Bondok, Ameen Khattab, etc.) actually singing lately. Nobody's going to confuse them for Abdel Halim Hafez, but it's an improvement over Auto-Tuned yelling.

The idea of Middle Eastern women teaching westerners how it's done is a great thing but trying to find one to do it is few and far between as the Middle Eastern culture frowns on their women dancing at all,

The most conservative Muslims don't want any dancing, but the rest don't have a problem with dancing itself. It's dancing in public (especially mixed-gender spaces), dancing for money or "as insufficiently respectable entertainment," and dancing in "immodest clothes" that they don't like. Women dancing in private with their friends and family in non-costume clothes for fun is okay. Men dancing among men for fun is okay. There's a small allowance for certain theatrical presentations of folkloric dance. And presumably women dancing for their husbands in private is still a thing.

Sadly, it seems the westerners are trying to save the dance more that the Middle Eastern people.

....aaand cue the shrieking about imperialism, the learned self loathing of colonialism, and paternalizing otherization. If we foreigners try to save the dance, we're overbearing and inserting ourselves where we don't belong, and if we don't, we're responsible for terpsichorean genocide. As they used to say, "D*mned if you do and d*mned if you don't."

* Obviously, Egypt is only one piece of the ME performing-arts mosaic, but they are a huge piece. I don't follow what is going on in Turkey, but the rest of North Africa seems to be drifting in the same direction as Egypt music-wise (lots of hip hop and rap, although that's not surprising, considering the rai scene in Algeria, and how much a part of the zeitgeist rap was in Tunisia during the Arab Spring). The Gulf is still trucking along with their traditional stuff, as is Iraq. Iraq seems to be pretty prolific in terms of cranking out an assortment of folkloric (Chobi, Kawliya, etc.) and traditional pan-Arab pop. The Levant doesn't seem to be as active in terms of releasing music as they used to be, and occasionally, music will come out of there that sounds like very mahraganat-adjacent dabkat. And the Palestinians have always felt a strong kinship with the LoFi, DIY "Imma keep it real"-ness of rap and hip hop.

 

[Zorba]

I don't like rap or hip-hop in my own culture, much less anybody else's...

 

[Greek Bonfire]

But what can you do as an outsider when the "cancel" is coming from within the culture? As a generalization, young Egyptians Do. Not. Want. The. Old. Stuff. They don't want orchestrated music that follows the traditional forms. They don't want traditional dancing. They don't want poetic lyrics about love and loss. They want lyrics that "speak their truth in their own words" layered over modern, hip-hop-influenced tracks so they can do modern, hip-hop-influenced dancing to it. Unless the Egyptians themselves rise up and reclaim their own artistic traditions like the Hawaiians did, who is going to preserve this?*

...But having said that, I don't know if it is in response to more Egyptian Musicians' Syndicate drama or something else, but I'm starting to encounter a few young mahraganat artists (Houda Bondok, Ameen Khattab, etc.) actually singing lately. Nobody's going to confuse them for Abdel Halim Hafez, but it's an improvement over Auto-Tuned yelling.



The most conservative Muslims don't want any dancing, but the rest don't have a problem with dancing itself. It's dancing in public (especially mixed-gender spaces), dancing for money or "as insufficiently respectable entertainment," and dancing in "immodest clothes" that they don't like. Women dancing in private with their friends and family in non-costume clothes for fun is okay. Men dancing among men for fun is okay. There's a small allowance for certain theatrical presentations of folkloric dance. And presumably women dancing for their husbands in private is still a thing.



....aaand cue the shrieking about imperialism, the learned self loathing of colonialism, and paternalizing otherization. If we foreigners try to save the dance, we're overbearing and inserting ourselves where we don't belong, and if we don't, we're responsible for terpsichorean genocide. As they used to say, "D*mned if you do and d*mned if you don't."

* Obviously, Egypt is only one piece of the ME performing-arts mosaic, but they are a huge piece. I don't follow what is going on in Turkey, but the rest of North Africa seems to be drifting in the same direction as Egypt music-wise (lots of hip hop and rap, although that's not surprising, considering the rai scene in Algeria, and how much a part of the zeitgeist rap was in Tunisia during the Arab Spring). The Gulf is still trucking along with their traditional stuff, as is Iraq. Iraq seems to be pretty prolific in terms of cranking out an assortment of folkloric (Chobi, Kawliya, etc.) and traditional pan-Arab pop. The Levant doesn't seem to be as active in terms of releasing music as they used to be, and occasionally, music will come out of there that sounds like very mahraganat-adjacent dabkat. And the Palestinians have always felt a strong kinship with the LoFi, DIY "Imma keep it real"-ness of rap and hip hop.

The Egyptians and most Middle Eastern people do not want the old stuff here either. The evidence of what I see is mostly trashy and undignified. When I actually do see something dignified, it's like a breath of fresh air.

 

[Greek Bonfire]

I don't like rap or hip-hop in my own culture, much less anybody else's...

And if you don't like rap or hip hop, it's taken by many as racist, which is utterly ridiculous.