Belly dance and religion

[chryssanthi sahar]

Dear Bin Rodi.

Thank you for the very interesting links I was not surprised by the answers of the Imam, since I know that fanatic Moslems think this way. But maybe you will be surprised to hear, that I know fanatic Christians, who would have given exactly the same advices:shok: For example the preacher of that fundamentalist protestant church, where I used to be a member, used almost the same arguments like the Imam of your links, to stop me from dancing (of course he didn't make it. The arguments rather convinced me to get really into the dancing ). And I knew Christians who believed that rock music is from devil and they obliged their children to destroy and throw away all of their rock Cd's. So in this case, it is not really the religion itself, but the fanaticism about the religion, which leads to such suppressive behaviour.
Me personally don't give a damn neither about what the Imam says about belly dancing, nor about what the priests and preachers say about belly dancing. If I am a poor sinner according to them, it's alright with me. I'd rather be a happy sinner than a frustrated saint:tongue:

 

[chryssanthi sahar]

Dear Chryssanthi, I think Its up to the individual dancers how they feel about the dance. I am not very knowledgeable about Egyptian culture but in India we have dances that perform for god or superior. Bharat natyam which is a classical dance which often has a spiritual ceremony before the dance.And its a highly regarded dance form which is quite complex. I have seen many personal interviews of dancers and other performers where they relate their art to their life, They live for it and they feel it when they perform, I believe thats their spirituality.And i am sure many Belly dancers feel the same way, its their life , its their spirituality.


kind regards

..

Dear Dipali.

I have dealt a bit with Indian dances (mainly with Bharat Natyam), so I happen to know about their spiritual nature. I also happen to know some very good Indian Bharat Natyam teachers, who are very spirituals persons, practising their spirituality through the dance. I wish sometimes, belly dance could also have such an obvious spirituality. But things are different here:think: Maybe this is not bad though, because everybody can discover his own spiritual approach to this dance (I mean belly dance). I know somehow that this dance is my personal spiritual path, but since I have no Guru to teach me how to walk on it (different than in Bharat Natyam), I have to learn by myself to walk this road. I have realized some things about the nature of this dance, but there is a lot more, which I have to understand and haven't understood it yet. So I thought, maybe I could hear about the experiences and recognitions of other people. It's like trying to walk a road in the dark: you put one foot after the other and you hope, that there is no sheer in front of you and you are happy, if you hear a voice in the dark telling you "it's safe over here"

 

[bin_rodi]

Dear Bin Rodi.

Thank you for the very interesting links I was not surprised by the answers of the Imam, since I know that fanatic Moslems think this way. But maybe you will be surprised to hear, that I know fanatic Christians, who would have given exactly the same advices:shok: For example the preacher of that fundamentalist protestant church, where I used to be a member, used almost the same arguments like the Imam of your links, to stop me from dancing (of course he didn't make it. The arguments rather convinced me to get really into the dancing ). And I knew Christians who believed that rock music is from devil and they obliged their children to destroy and throw away all of their rock Cd's. So in this case, it is not really the religion itself, but the fanaticism about the religion, which leads to such suppressive behaviour.
Me personally don't give a damn neither about what the Imam says about belly dancing, nor about what the priests and preachers say about belly dancing. If I am a poor sinner according to them, it's alright with me. I'd rather be a happy sinner than a frustrated saint:tongue:

you mean that Islam religion is tolerant with belly dancing but it's only the fanatic imam who made all that up????

sorry ma'am with all respect, iam not agree with you on this

and i think i put before a link show how the basics of Islam persecute and refuse even the woman in general to show her body

so i don't think that all what that imam said contradict with Islam commands

 

[Rebecca_]

I honesty do think that bellydance is sacred, but I do not use it as a form or worship. Bellydance is sacred to me because it is the only pure form of expression I have ever found. If I could just tell you what I was thinking and feeling, I would never have to dance. If I'm listening to music and using the music as a lens to explore my inner workings through movement, yes, I would say that is sacred. On the other hand, if I am bouncing around to the latest amr diab song that might not be so sacred to me.

Bin rodi, the way I understand it fundamentalism should not represent islam as a whole. Fundamental islam of course is not going to tolerate women at all exposing themselves or being liberated. A large part of the world is islamic, and islam exists in plenty of places where women are not restricted by fundamentalism. Nonetheless, thank you for sharing your opinion.

Chryssanthi, I agree that any type of fundamentalist or extremist religion will have the same extremist rules that put a cap on self-expression. I heard an interesting theory: When people are not allowed to dance or listen to music and have many restrictions on their lives, they are much more likely to be very passionate(in an extremist way) about their religion since they are not allowed to be passionate about anything else.

 

[Yasmine Bint Al Nubia]

No Bin Rodi, She was not saying that Islam is tolerant of Belly dance. In fact I was going to reply to your post with a similar description. So as not to have any problems communicating and interpretating: What Chryssanthi (and I) believe is that there are Christian leaders who will give the same answers as the Muslim cleric. From my personal experience, I've attended Christian Churches where dancing,singing were considered forbidden, in Arabic the word is haram. These Christian leaders speak and act JUST like the Imam posted in your links. It doesn't make these leaders any smarter than those mullahs but JUST as intolerant and hateful. So it's important that you understand what her reply meant.
So Chryssanthi in reply to your qestion, I believe that all forms of dance has a spiritual connection to the creative forces in life. There are times when I hear music and I'm compelled to move(and not just belly dancing either). Also I feel a spritual connection when I see any dancer or singer, with emotional attachment to the music.
Yasmine

 

[Zorba]

Oh boy - I leave town for a few days, and look what brews up!

I agree with much of what has been said in this thread already. Some semi-connected and semi-random thoughts:

If one accepts the idea that "My rights stop where yours begin", then within that context, the greatest possible evil is:

Interference with free will.

Hopefully without getting into too many semantics (which makes many discussions/arguments meaningless), it is my belief that mankind (or humankind if you prefer) can only further evolve spiritually by the total abandonment of rules based "Morality", and rather adopting a "thinking based" sense of "Ethics". Or to put it another way, rejecting absolutism and understanding the situational relativism of the universe.

I do not understand people who feel it necessary to submit themselves to self proclaimed "religious authorities" who do their thinking for them. I don't get it.

Like many in the Belly Dance community, I am a pagan; although not a Wiccan or similar. As such, and a polytheist, I generally take a dim view of monotheists whose belief systems tend towards the simplistic and the authoritarian. No thank you.

Someone in this thread mentioned the private nature of the individual's relationship with the divine. Nothing could be more true - My relationship with my Gods is no-one's business but my own. I seldom discuss it with anyone - I'd sooner discuss my sex life, my spirituality is that private to me. This is in direct conflict with many brands of Monotheists who seem to think it necessary to shout it from the rooftops and make sure everyone else is assimilated. Interference with free will again...

I've been watching our own, home grown "American Taliban" since I was old enough to recognize it as such. My revelation was in reading a Seventh Day Adventist publication called "Signs of the Times" in the mid 70's. There was an article in one issue decrying declining church attendance. The author concluded that it would be unfortunate if it became necessary to pass laws compelling church attendance.

WHAT. THE. ####!!!???

That was my wakeup call - I realized for the first time that people like this exist, and must be resisted at all costs. And they're growing in power and influence worldwide. And what gives them the right to determine what *I* believe? More interference with free will - the "dark side of the force" if you will - utter evil.

I could go on ad nauseum, but I've probably p*ssed everyone off enough for one turn...

But to bring it full circle - ANY artform is spiritual. And moving to music is VERY spiritual - so yes, Belly Dance is spiritual!

 

[Aniseteph]

Also I feel a spritual connection when I see any dancer or singer, with emotional attachment to the music.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: That's what it's all about.

Welcome back Zorba!

 

[Tarik Sultan]

you mean that Islam religion is tolerant with belly dancing but it's only the fanatic imam who made all that up????

sorry ma'am with all respect, iam not agree with you on this

and i think i put before a link show how the basics of Islam persecute and refuse even the woman in general to show her body

so i don't think that all what that imam said contradict with Islam commands

You're not understanding what she's saying. what she is trying to poinbt out to you is that there are many christians who are just like those muslims in the links you posted.

In America we have a christian group called the Amish. In their religion it is forbidden to listen to any kind of music, or to dance or even watch t.v.

Many of them are so extreem that they don't have electricity or cars. To this day they still use horse carriages to get around. They live like people did 200 years ago. They won't even take pictures or let a t.v. camera record them.

I can tell you personally that my church tought that dancing was a sinb and that women who show their body in revealing clothes were going to hell, so how are these christians diffeent from fanatical muslims?

 

[bin_rodi]

guys you are missing the main point
the thread is about "the religions and belly dancing"
and not about "the behavior of people who believe in these religions toward the belly dancing"

i show with these links that Islam forbid belly dancing, music and any art by woman in fact


here is some more:

kor'an 33.53 tells the believers
"If you ask his wives for anything, speak to them from behind a curtain. This is more chaste for your hearts and their hearts."

kor'an 33:59 Allah says:
"Prophet enjoin your wives, your daughters and the wives of true believers to draw their veils close round them. This is more proper, so that they may be recognized and not be molested."


so if any body wanna show by verses from Bible how Christianity ban belly dancing, please go ahead and be my guest

happy new year everybody

 

[Zumarrad]

Ask-Imam.com [8847] What must I do? friend getting married soon. She wants her friends to throw her a bridal shower. Also she is having a mehdi party for ladies with a belly-dancer.

Now, I am no religious expert, but it seems very clear to me that the Imam in this case is decrying the celebration *because* the marriage is dodgy. As the questioner points out, the groom has expressed his intention not to work and to live off his in-laws - something he hasn't told them. So the mehndi and the dancer and what have you are not *of themselves* haram, but attending them would be because they are in celebration of a marriage that is clearly doomed to be very bad.

I notice also that the *one* Koranic quote the Imam gives in response to the questions these people posed is one that he *interprets* as referring to music and dance being bad *because* he believes they can lead one into doing things that are *actually* sinful, like adultery, by exciting the senses.

Anthony Shay (yes, him again) has written a good article called Belly Dancing and Jurisprudence, where he quotes the two references to actual dancing that are in the hadiths, and points out that imams have been arguing about whether or not the prophet's comments approved or disapproved of dancing for centuries. He also says categorically that if the Koran *did* explicitly prohibit dance and music, *there would be no dance and music* in Islamic communities, because there would be no room for debate and people would simply not do it. Same as they don't eat pork. If you are Muslim and you eat pork, you know damn well you are doing something haram.

A lot of imams, like a lot of Christian religious leaders, teach strongly against dancing and music because they are stimulating. Not because they are forbidden.

 

[Tarik Sultan]

guys you are missing the main point
the thread is about "the religions and belly dancing"
and not about "the behavior of people who believe in these religions toward the belly dancing"

i show with these links that Islam forbid belly dancing, music and any art by woman in fact


here is some more:

kor'an 33.53 tells the believers
"If you ask his wives for anything, speak to them from behind a curtain. This is more chaste for your hearts and their hearts."

kor'an 33:59 Allah says:
"Prophet enjoin your wives, your daughters and the wives of true believers to draw their veils close round them. This is more proper, so that they may be recognized and not be molested."

These suras don't say anything about dancing. They are talking about what is considered the descent way of dressing for a woman, and that a man should not speak directly to another man's wife in order to make sure there is no temptation to commit adultery.

There is nothing here that is any different from what christianity teaches.

so if any body wanna show by verses from Bible how Christianity ban belly dancing, please go ahead and be my guest

happy new year everybody

Okay, I will. Taken from the modern translation of the New Testament from the New Jerusalem Bible.

1Corinthians 11:6 - Indeed, if a woman does go wsithout a veil, she should have her hair cut off too; but it is a shameful thing for a woman to have her hair cut off or shaved off, then she should wear a veil.

1Timothy 2:9-10 - Similarly women are to wear suitable clothes and to dress quietly and modestly, without braided hair or gold or jewlery or expensive clothes. Their adornment is to do good works that are proper for women whgo claim to be religious.

DOES CHRISTIANITY TEACH EQALITY BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN?

1Timothy 2: 11-12 - During instruction, a woman should be quiet and respectful. I give no permission to a womanto teach or have authority over a man. :naghty: A woman ought to be quiet.

OTHER INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW A CHRISTION WOMAN IS EXPECTED TO DRESS.

1Peter 3:3-5 - Your adornment should be not an exterior one, consisting of braided hair or gold jewlery or fine clothing, but the interior disposition of the heart, consisting in the imperishable quality of a gentle and peaceful spirit, so percious in the sight of God. That was how holy women of the past dressed themselves attractively - they hoped in God and were submissiveto their husbands.

As you can see, there is nothing in the Christian Bible, called the New Testament, that is different from what the Koran teaches when it comes to how a woman should dress and act.

Both the Bible and Koran teach that women should wear a veil and dress simple. The Christian Bible also teaches that women are inferior to men because they should be quiet and have no authority over men. There it is in Black and white, not what tradition says, but what the Bible, which Christians believe is the word of God says.

One last thing, we must remember that the first Christians, like Jesus himself, were Jews. Therefore, if we look in the Old Testament, known as the Torah, we will find similar teachings about women's dress and behavior..
Jewdaism, Christianity and Islam all agree when it comes to how women should dress and behave.

Had two shows tonight, damn I'm tired Happy New Year and Kulli Sana wa inta tayib

 

[Kaydeera]

Hello everybody,

I feel driven to add a thought that has come up in my mind while reading the posts of this threat:

As a woman I feel offended by the religious believes I have come into contact with.

What right did or does any founder of a religious concept have to divide humankind into two qualitatively different classes – men and women?

I wonder – is there a religious concept founded by a woman?

And if we owe our existance to “God” – for what purpose were we given the ability to feel and give joy, if we are not to use it? – What else is bellydancing, dancing of any kind, singing, music, but the ability to feel and give joy?

In catholic mass the priest chants, churchbells ring, the Qur’an is recited in a chanting way – for me that is music.

I think, I don’t believe in much of anything, because I don’t like the restrictions that come along with all these accredited religions.
I try to respect anybody’s way of life, even if I don’t approve of it.

 

[Aisha Azar]

Religion

Dear Kaydeera,
There is some evidence that Jesus MIGHT hve taught a sort of spiritual equality among the sexes. There is a book called "The Gnostic Gospels" that tells about a Chrisitan sect that discusses Mary Magdalene as an Apostle and perhaps the lover or wife of Jesus. It is an interesting read. Some of the rules that the Apostle Paul wrote about women sitting in the back of the church and shutting up might even be directly related to the habit among Gnostics of letting anyone, including women, speak and preach at their religious meetings. ( It is also true, that his buddy, if I am remembering correctly her name was Priscilla was not subject to these same rules.) We also have to remember that not all of Mohammed's wives (Peace be on him) just sat around letting him dictate what they would do. They used to argue with him and according to Nawal Al Saadawi, they even questioned whether everything he dictated about women actually came from God or he just said it to make his own life easier.
We need to keep in mind that men and women wore veils, headgear, etc in the Middle East for a very long time before either the Christians or the Muslims dictated it. In the Qur'an it is dictated that both men and women dress modestly. It was common sense to cover oneself against the sun, just like at the time it was common sense not to eat pork because of rampant trichinosis and it was common sense not to drink alcohol if one lived in the desert, as it deydrates the body.
If you look at pictures of people in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf today, who has their hair covered?? Nearly EVERYONE of both sexes.
Regards,
A'isha

 

[Aniseteph]

As a woman I feel offended by the religious believes I have come into contact with.

I find it offensive too Kaydeera.

I guess the standard argument is that these religions tell women AND men how to behave, and if men did their bit too we females would all be happy little cared-for bunnies cleaning our houses, cooking, washing, looking after a houseful of children and being blissfully contented... Funny how it's mostly patriarchal religions telling us we should be cooking the tea and washing men's socks and not bothering our delicate little brains with Complicated Mens Important Stuff* that we wouldn't understand.

And you wonder why they don't approve of bellydance...

* shhhh... don't tell, but some of it isn't actually that complicated.

 

[Suheir]

We need to keep in mind that men and women wore veils, headgear, etc in the Middle East for a very long time before either the Christians or the Muslims dictated it.

Correct. In the UK, it was rare to see a man outside without a hat 60 years ago, almost all women wore a headscarf or hat and in a Christian church women were required to cover their heads and men to remove their hats! Last week I saw an historical re-enactment at the Tower of London - the upper-class mediaeval women all wore a garment that completely covered their heads and necks with a veil on top of that. I think one of the reasons for the current reactionary attitude to Muslim veiling in Europe is that the wearing of headscarves for women is completely out of fashion.

 

[bin_rodi]

guys you are missing the main point
the thread is about "the religions and belly dancing"
and not about "the behavior of people who believe in these religions toward the belly dancing"

i show with these links that Islam forbid belly dancing, music and any art by woman in fact


here is some more:

kor'an 33.53 tells the believers
"If you ask his wives for anything, speak to them from behind a curtain. This is more chaste for your hearts and their hearts."

kor'an 33:59 Allah says:
"Prophet enjoin your wives, your daughters and the wives of true believers to draw their veils close round them. This is more proper, so that they may be recognized and not be molested."

These suras don't say anything about dancing. They are talking about what is considered the descent way of dressing for a woman, and that a man should not speak directly to another man's wife in order to make sure there is no temptation to commit adultery.

There is nothing here that is any different from what christianity teaches.



Okay, I will. Taken from the modern translation of the New Testament from the New Jerusalem Bible.

1Corinthians 11:6 - Indeed, if a woman does go wsithout a veil, she should have her hair cut off too; but it is a shameful thing for a woman to have her hair cut off or shaved off, then she should wear a veil.

1Timothy 2:9-10 - Similarly women are to wear suitable clothes and to dress quietly and modestly, without braided hair or gold or jewlery or expensive clothes. Their adornment is to do good works that are proper for women whgo claim to be religious.

DOES CHRISTIANITY TEACH EQALITY BETWEEN MEN AND WOMEN?

1Timothy 2: 11-12 - During instruction, a woman should be quiet and respectful. I give no permission to a womanto teach or have authority over a man. :naghty: A woman ought to be quiet.

OTHER INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW A CHRISTION WOMAN IS EXPECTED TO DRESS.

1Peter 3:3-5 - Your adornment should be not an exterior one, consisting of braided hair or gold jewlery or fine clothing, but the interior disposition of the heart, consisting in the imperishable quality of a gentle and peaceful spirit, so percious in the sight of God. That was how holy women of the past dressed themselves attractively - they hoped in God and were submissiveto their husbands.

As you can see, there is nothing in the Christian Bible, called the New Testament, that is different from what the Koran teaches when it comes to how a woman should dress and act.

Both the Bible and Koran teach that women should wear a veil and dress simple. The Christian Bible also teaches that women are inferior to men because they should be quiet and have no authority over men. There it is in Black and white, not what tradition says, but what the Bible, which Christians believe is the word of God says.

One last thing, we must remember that the first Christians, like Jesus himself, were Jews. Therefore, if we look in the Old Testament, known as the Torah, we will find similar teachings about women's dress and behavior..
Jewdaism, Christianity and Islam all agree when it comes to how women should dress and behave.

as long as you said the verses i show from kor'an never mentioned the belly dancing, so does yours from the bible mentioned the belly dancing??

any way do you mean that kor'an command woman to put on veil and never show parts of her body and it's okay with belly dancing???!!!!!!!!!
how come kor'an ban this and allow that???
unless you think it's okay in kor'an to woman to belly dance while covering her body and hair, it better call it then tent dance not belly dance :lol:

all the verses from bible you show is right, but you know the concept of instructions in Christianity is different than instructions in Islam

they call it in Arabic "Fard" i can't explain the word in english but it's mean that kor'an COMMAND people to do that and they MUST do it

but in Christianity the bible RECOMMEND to people to SHOULD do it

 

[bin_rodi]

Dear Kaydeera,
There is some evidence that Jesus MIGHT hve taught a sort of spiritual equality among the sexes. There is a book called "The Gnostic Gospels" that tells about a Chrisitan sect that discusses Mary Magdalene as an Apostle and perhaps the lover or wife of Jesus. It is an interesting read. Some of the rules that the Apostle Paul wrote about women sitting in the back of the church and shutting up might even be directly related to the habit among Gnostics of letting anyone, including women, speak and preach at their religious meetings. ( It is also true, that his buddy, if I am remembering correctly her name was Priscilla was not subject to these same rules.) We also have to remember that not all of Mohammed's wives (Peace be on him) just sat around letting him dictate what they would do. They used to argue with him and according to Nawal Al Saadawi, they even questioned whether everything he dictated about women actually came from God or he just said it to make his own life easier.
We need to keep in mind that men and women wore veils, headgear, etc in the Middle East for a very long time before either the Christians or the Muslims dictated it. In the Qur'an it is dictated that both men and women dress modestly. It was common sense to cover oneself against the sun, just like at the time it was common sense not to eat pork because of rampant trichinosis and it was common sense not to drink alcohol if one lived in the desert, as it deydrates the body.
If you look at pictures of people in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf today, who has their hair covered?? Nearly EVERYONE of both sexes.
Regards,
A'isha

i don't agree with you on the equality between man and woman in muhammad life or in kor'an

as the verses i mentioned show that only woman should hide her body and her hair but i never saw the same commands to man
according to the Islamic shari'a(law) the woman deserve only the half portion as her brother deserve
i mean if the man get 1000 pounds she must have only 500
if he married 4 women, she only has the right to marry one guy
if he can divorce her, she can't divorce him
he has the right to beat her, she doesn't has the right to beat him
also in the court(which it's laws is from kor'an) here it's not allowed to testify
she also doesn't have the right to shiekh or imam(Muslim cleric)

men have their hair covered in the photos of people in Saudi Arabia and the Gulf today for many reasons and Islam commands is not one of them

 

[chryssanthi sahar]

you mean that Islam religion is tolerant with belly dancing but it's only the fanatic imam who made all that up????

Dear Bin Rodi.
I'm afraid, you have to improve your English. You seem to understand many things that we are writing here wrong, because your English is not good enough. I never said, that Islam is tolerant against belly dance! You understood what I wrote completely wrong I KNOW THAT ISLAM IS AGAINST BELLY DANCE, but I don't care what Islam thinks of belly dance, because I am not a Moslem. What I wanted to say (as Tarik, who understood my writing, was trying to explain you), is that there are not only Moslems who are intolerant towards belly dancing, but also fanatic Christians. But I don't care about both them.
I know that is difficult to debate things in a foreign language, English is also for me a foreign language, but at least I have a look at a dictionary, if there are words which I don't understand. You don't seem to do that. You understand many things that people write here wrong and then you offend them, because you have understood something totally different, of what they have said. Please be sure, that you have understood the message before you answer to it. And if you are not sure, ask somebody who understands English better than you. Otherwise we are going to have misunderstandings all of the time.

 

[bin_rodi]

Dear Bin Rodi.
I'm afraid, you have to improve your English. You seem to understand many things that we are writing here wrong, because your English is not good enough. I never said, that Islam is tolerant against belly dance! You understood what I wrote completely wrong I KNOW THAT ISLAM IS AGAINST BELLY DANCE, but I don't care what Islam thinks of belly dance, because I am not a Moslem. What I wanted to say (as Tarik, who understood my writing, was trying to explain you), is that there are not only Moslems who are intolerant towards belly dancing, but also fanatic Christians. But I don't care about both them.
I know that is difficult to debate things in a foreign language, English is also for me a foreign language, but at least I have a look at a dictionary, if there are words which I don't understand. You don't seem to do that. You understand many things that people write here wrong and then you offend them, because you have understood something totally different, of what they have said. Please be sure, that you have understood the message before you answer to it. And if you are not sure, ask somebody who understands English better than you. Otherwise we are going to have misunderstandings all of the time.

okay, i will, thanks for the advice

 

[chryssanthi sahar]

okay, i will, thanks for the advice

I hope I didn't offend you telling this directly, but I know from myself. I also understood many things wrong, when my English was not as good as it is today (o.k. even today it is not perfect, but good enough to understand almost everything written here the right way. Except if somebody writes in a strange dialect:lol: ) and I also had some fights with people, because I misunderstood them. The same and worse was with my German in the first years I moved to Germany. So I had to study hard in order to be able to understand the language, the way native speakers use it. I know, it is difficult to do so, especially when you don't live in a country where this language is spoken. But one possibility is to make friends with native speakers and just ask them, when you don't understand something
I wish you a very happy New Year