Article Compares Sadie & Kaya's America's Got Talent Performances to Stripping

lizaj

New member
This thread was also asking us to consider the blog not just continue the same old "jellus haters" theme.
Is it fair to compare them to strippers? I reckon not. They don't perform as strippers. However I understand how some American belly dancers are irritated and let down by their presentation of the dance and the way t is feeding the stereotype. Thankfully what they have done on AGT was not going to frighten any horses and probably suitable for that kind of rather meaningless show: explotative and 90 secs. of fame.
**BTW I see old style stripteaze as perfectly valid ADULT entertainment:that took some skill.
 

Aniseteph

New member
However, I didn't see any of the complainers trying out for AGT or being creative in trying to promote belly dancing or making money, just a lot of sour grapes about what the public might think about belly dancing.

IMO anyone going on the big TV talent shows to promote their artform is rather naive. These shows would have had Samia Gamal shaking it to Lady Marmalade and getting the "phwooooarh" treatment from the judges, or Maria Callas mic'd up singing stuff from Phantom of the Opera.

To promote yourself, that's a different matter - it's all publicity.

And how do you know what the dancers who don't appreciate K&S's approach are doing to promote belly dance, or whether they are making money out of what they do? Just because something is not on mainstream TV does not mean it doesn't exist.
 

PracticalDancer

New member
However, I didn't see any of the complainers trying out for AGT or being creative in trying to promote belly dancing or making money, just a lot of sour grapes about what the public might think about belly dancing.

Your comment is completely without merit, is unfounded, and is untrue. I fall into that category of "complainers" based on some of my comments in other threads; yet, I belong to a troupe that has for the last 28+ years been devoted to promoting Middle Eastern Dance in its multiple forms, has performed at multiple events (paid and pro bono) to advance the art, and has hosted 5 days of study per year for students for at least the last 16 years. I don't have the exact figures on when the troupe started doing the workshops, but my point is that we have been working our sparkly butts off for this dance for years now.

You assume a lot with that dismissive comment, and you assume incorrectly.
 

kahina farozi

New member
We will never known if they would have busted out the kama sutra routine! I loved what they did though, on the show. The author Finding fault with their dvd cover is stupid. Her opinion was not substantive.the only thing I can figure is some light googling brought up their antics but decided to use restraint until they actually did something awful in regards to the show. The whole subject is an interesting barometer on bd public opinion.....men just want to oogle....more than just bders have a favorable opinion of bd.in the mid east manyfamous bders are scandelous...if bd is scandelous here.. our classes will dwindle because the students won't want to be associated with the art. our society will loose out on what bd has done for so many ladies. The men judges comments were creepy.glad kaya spoke up about it. Their movements are along the lines of Turkish cabaret ,in regarding the jerky bold movements...a lot of Egyptian style dancers cannot relate because they see the dance through their perspectives....as for s&k they are great as long as they are not humping anyone on a stage...kama sutra really was their winona rider moment in my opinion.
 

MsCaddell

New member
What Their AGT Performance Has Done for Bellydance

I have a few opinions about S & K, as well as the show and the article, so let me try to keep this as organized as possible:

In my opinion, S & K's style (especiallay Sadie's) has done quite a bit to promote bellydancing. You can't deny the fact that their videos have so many millions of views. So in a way, they are doing something good for bellydance. Still, not everything is positive in my opinion. They have often made bellydance fit into the negative stereotypes, as a dance that is simply based upon trying to be sexy, when bellydance is so much more. But then, this happens with everything. For example, singing is a real and complicated talent, but to look at singers like Beyonce (who has a beautiful voice) and performances like hers, the music industry seems more based in selling sex than promoting talent.

Now, in regards to the article, I did like that the writer made a point to state that bellydance is an actual art and not the same as stripping. So it didn't seem to me that he was blackballing bellydance in general, just the particular style of Sadie & Kaya.

But I have to say, their AGT performances were not as "bad" as some of the stuff I've heard about them elsewhere (Kama Sutra?) and have also seen (I am part of the group who is not a fan of that DVD cover with the leather and little else). The reason I think they got voted off is not because they were too sexual/sexy, but because the American public still does not understand the effort, skill, and talent involved in bellydance.

I remember when Jenna was on the Tyra Banks show and Tyra asked her if bellydancing is easy. Jenna said "It's not as easy as we make it look." See, part of being a good bellydancer is to not show the audience how "hard" everything is, because it makes them think about the complications instead of the presentation. So I think that a lot of the moves that bellydance students would recognize as difficult and technical, the average viewer would think "Oh, she's really good at rolling her stomach."
 

Eshta

New member
I think the most interesting thing about the article is that the author doesn't appear to be "in" the belly dance world, but is clearly able to distinguish this style from the more cultural/artistic. I think often we dancers get upset and frustrated because we think the GP will see an overtly sexual performance and think that is typical of BD. Perhaps sometimes we need to give them more credit (well, at least I do anyhoo :D)

As for K&S, I think they have really tapped in to a way to make belly dance a COMMERCIAL success, which is different from (although occasionally overlaps with) artistic integrity. I think it would be hard for anyone denounce them as lacking talent, ability and they must work extremely hard to achieve what they do. It's just that personally if I worked as hard, and had as much talent and ability, I would want to put it to a different use.

Lol, I'm glad the "real women" around here don't all look like them, it would be very intimidating for this particular lower-than-the-"real" standard woman to venture out in public without wearing a bag over my head and body!
 

nightdancer

New member
Because I am not as nice as my dear friend Anala--

However, I didn't see any of the complainers trying out for AGT...


That's because we have both sense and artistic integrity. I (and I think I can safely speak for most of the known members here) am not willing to twist the art to meet the needs of Reality TV.
 

Greek Bonfire

Well-known member
At least they were honest, though. Didnt someone a few years ago win some sort of reality show, rooted in "My dad died, my mom was a drug addict that left me, I raised my two siblings, etc" and it turned out she was from the Upper East Side in New York and her parents were accountants, or something?

I agree with their honesty. I myself would rather win on my own ability than having someone feel sorry for me, even though most people do have the tendency to give the underdog a break. And yes, how many times have we heard of people telling lies just to get votes?
 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
First of all, the author of the article lost her credibility with me when she made the addendum comment about the "Rakasah school forums." A google search on their names doesn't make you an expert on them or what they do.

Second, I've seen Kaya dance live (I think it was before she and S hooked up) and I thought she was a very good dancer, albeit her focus was too aggressive for my tastes. Sadie I've seen on video, and she's good. The two together are good. But let's be honest: in this performance THEY WEREN'T AS GOOD AS WE HAVE SEEN THEM. Something was off. It was boring. I got bored of the veils about 5 seconds in, and the synchronized drum solo is really only cool the first 50 times you see it. These two are technically better dancers than what the clips showed us.

Third, what was UP with the boring costumes? This is VEGAS baby! GLAM those things up!!! Although I adore cowrie shells and the sort of neutral tribaret look for a more intimate stage (and Kaya used to design exquisite and gorgeous tribaret bedlah) for the big stage here, it just looked blah.


There is no cultural respect you can siphon from their performance.

Can't disagree there, but people have argued that about the Superstars shows, and lord knows Riverdance was ORIGINALLY met with a heck of a lot of hostility from the traditional camp. But as we've seen in the US, "bellydance" is being more and more divorced from Beledi and Sharqi.

Rather than looking like a fluid partnership, the few second lag on the second, less-skilled dancer (who is also much taller) catches the attention and sticks out like a proverbial sore thumb.

Is she talking about Kaya??? Kaya IS taller, but not by that much. But I whole-heartedly disagree with her assertion that Kaya is "less-skilled." If either of them is capable of actual soulful musical expression, it's Kaya. Sadie's range of motion is different because of her torso shape, but I hardly consider her "more skilled" because she has a more exaggerated undulation.
???

Also judging them harshly because some men act like a drooling Roger Rabbit is really unfair. We have plenty of GOOD reasons to judge them :)
(To quote performance artist Nao: "I am not responsible for your experience of my art." lol)

Now on to this mess:

I think it's wonderful that these two young, beautiful, talented belly dancers who are ambitious, are seeking out opportunities in the mainstream. It's so wonderful to finally hear other dancers applauding them for their getting out there and trying to make some money in this profession.

I applaud Yasmina Ramzy for her outstanding theatrical performances of Middle Eastern dances. I applaud Jillina for her work with her own company and now the Evolution show, and for keeping the Superstars show together for so long. I applaud fusion artists and innovators like Onca of Baraka Mundi, or Hahbi Ru. I applaud Ranya Renee for putting together the Theatrical Bellydance conference.

I don't applaud Little Miss Suzy Nippletassels for trying to make money in this profession by dancing without a skirt at the local hookah lounge.

I've applauded the bellydancers who appear on So You Think You Can Dance, and frankly I was applauding K&S as long as they weren't embarrassing us.

Some belly dancers have said some pretty nasty things about their past.

No, we've simply commented on the nasty things they themselves did and have no apologies for.

However, I didn't see any of the complainers trying out for AGT

First of all, how do you know this? How well do you know ANY of us here? You don't.

Second of all, the vast majority of dancers don't want to have anything to do with so-called "Reality" shows because of the ridiculous nature of their production. Maybe some of us don't want to have our music dubbed over, or use only music supplied by the producers? Maybe some of us looked into the show and found there are ridiculous strings attached to winning.(I'm not saying there are.) How do YOU know that the winner isn't going to be subjected to a prohibitive contract? (There is a reason why the first winner of Project Runway refused the prize money.)


or being creative in trying to promote belly dancing or making money,

WHO ARE YOU to assume you know everyone on this board and what we are doing to promote this dance? Puh-leeze!! Yeah, I guess Ranya's not trying to promote our art with the Theatrical conference. Jill has no interest in promoting our dance with the Evolution show. Cheryl at Black Orchid Danse isn't trying to make money or elevate the art when she brings in Tito for a workshop. Same with DeeDee -- she's not interested in making money when she sponsors Fifi or Dina. :rolleyes::rolleyes:Give it a rest.


just a lot of sour grapes about what the public might think about belly dancing.

Okay, since it's obvious you're new here, this is the deal:
When the public sees something bad that is labeled bellydance, that BECOMES my problem when that same public is looking to hire an entertainer. I have never once in my life given a performance that was anything other than family-friendly. BUT others in my area have done some nasty things. Now when I get calls, I have to defend what I do and explain that yes, I actually CAN dance, I have training; and no, I won't be taking off any of my clothes.

Public perception is EVERYTHING. If you do something to HURT that public perception, you hurt all of us. If you can't get this through your head, take a low-level marketing class or look into the uproar over "Modern Art."


S & K are here to stay,

Oh if I only had a dollar for every artist whose work was defended by this comment. They may be here TODAY, but there are no guarantees that their success will last. To misquote Project Runway, one day you're in and the next, you're out.

they do have talent and yes they are sexy and do promote that style.

Yes, yes, and yes. So what?

The debates we have had in the past center around 2 things:
(1) the Rakassah debacle and their refusal to recognize or acknowledge that it was the wrong venue for that type of performance, and
(2) the Snakecharma video, which many of us felt perpetuated every negative stereotype about our art that exists.

We questioned whether or not we wanted to support the pair financially, by buying their dvds and going to their workshops. Everyone has to make his or her own choice on that matter. We engaged in a very public debate on the responsibilities of an artist to his/her fellow artists.

Nobody's saying Sadie runs around kicking puppies. We simply question her taste level and question how much of an effect (good and bad) we will be seeing from their very public performances. Get over the whole "sour grapes; you're all jealous haters" nonsense because you don't know any of us, or what we personally are doing for our art.
 

Corylus

New member
A minute and a half to impress the judges, studio audience and viewing audience at large, could you do it?

In all honesty, probably not! I doubt I would get past the first round!

On Britain's Got Talent there has been questionable belly dancing too, in terms of being representational of the culture and artistic impression versus being sexy.

The dancers who do well on BGT are always pretty and slim, much like Sadie and Kaya. Sadie is, in my opinion, much more attractive than Kaya.

I can completely see why this flashy style of dancing appeals in the West; sexiness sells! That's all it comes down to with me for these two. A minority of people will be looking at their dancing and judging it in terms of their expressive, emotional dance ability and what their dancing may do to the reputation of belly dancing as a whole.

The majority will be thinking 'wow! They look hot and they're dancing!'

They will not be thinking 'those girls need to cover up a bit more and be respectful to the roots of Middle Eastern dance'!


These are smart business ladies. The prize is a million dollars

I disagree, I don’t think they are smart 'business ladies' for trying to cash in on the fact that sexiness sells. That has been a well known fact for thousands of years!

And they aren't smart for trying to win $1 million. As far as that point is concerned, they are no smarter than all the other people who go on these shows trying to win a million dollars; they just have a talent that appeals more to the aesthetic of the programme, and indeed to the viewing, voting public.
 

Amanda (was Aziyade)

Well-known member
One more thing -- despite the borderline sexy attitude they took, I think K&S did a FANTASTIC job showing the general public what an actual skilled dancer looks like.

I know a lot of us fight the Suzy Nippletassels for jobs, and when the public doesn't know any better, they can't understand that they get what they pay for. I am SO HAPPY to see SKILLED dancers, who work very hard to be as good as they are, representing us to the public. (I just wish the two would use better judgment on where they show off their skills and in what fashion, but more people saw AGT than the snakecharmer thing, so anyway...)
 

Shanazel

Moderator
I'm generally not a fan of reporters, as they tend to stretch the truth, and overexaggerate.

This is just furthering the stereotypes associated with belly dance. Its actually really sad.

Oh, Luna, sweetie, there are sterotypes everywhere- including the one wherein reporters tend to stretch the truth and over exaggerate. ;)

Did K&S get voted off, then? I've been gone and don't have a TV anyway.
 

lizaj

New member
Oh, Luna, sweetie, there are sterotypes everywhere- including the one wherein reporters tend to stretch the truth and over exaggerate. ;)

Did K&S get voted off, then? I've been gone and don't have a TV anyway.

These days I think we tend to forget that reporters ( I assume we are talking journalists here) are also reporting from the floods of Pakistan,Afghanistan and your local magistrates court and not just in the gossip columns.
 

MissVega

New member
This thread on Bhuz has some really interesting data on it:

Starts on page 15, post #430

Sadie and Kaya on AGT - Page 15 - BELLYDANCE CENTRAL - Everything Belly Dance! Welcome to BHUZ - Biggest Online BellyDancing Community

It seems that what we THINK the public likes might need a little rethinking.

Thanks for sharing that:) It said a lot of points I was going to suggest and that saves me a lot of typing lol. I've always known that many people will think that bellydance is boring or find it boring. That does not bother me. I've heard it many times. To each their own:D

I thought that their double veil was beautifully done but I didn't think that it was a "vegas" performance. Kaya did (as the article mentioned, although very harshly) lag behind Sadie in a couple of moves. I did feel bad for them as I feel that Howie and Pierce trivialized them and their dancing chalking it all down to sex appeal and beauty. Like their dance or not, hard work went into it and they do have talent.
Personally I liked how it started, but did not enjoy the drum solo. My mom saw it on TV and asked me if they were actual bellydancers because they seemed stripper-ish but also noted that Sadie was a much better dancer and seemed very capable.


Also, weird note. My grandmother on my father's side (quite possibly one of the most evil,cruel, mean women that I have met in my lifetime... she is a white jewish jamaican and yet still manages to be incredibly racist....she said she would only help me with UNiversity if I was biomed/premed...has said to me "I'm very disappointed that you're not tall, thin and pretty like your model friend jessica blah blah blah blah, anyway just trust me, I am a very kind person but she can bring out the worst in me.)
She is currently very sick as she was a lifetime smoker who developed lung cancer that has spread throughout her body and brain and she is on some heavy medication and is not completely coherent by any means. Anyway she saw Kaya and Sadie on America's Got Talent and thought that one of them was me. And proceeded to tell me that she wasn't helping me out with my dancing because I wasn't good enough and didn't make it to Vegas..... ughhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh are you kidding me!!!!!!! She didn't believe/wouldn't understand that that was not me LOL! :rolleyes:
 

MissVega

New member
Wait, was this your Mom's opinion or yours? (Or both?)

My mom's. I was paraphrasing though, the actual convo went something like this.
I told her what my grandma had said and she said "Oh yah I saw them. They weren't very good, stripper-esque and mechanical looking. The darker haired one was a much better dancer though, it didn't seem like a good pairing."

I dont' recall every mentioning or showing my mom Sadie or Kaya prior to this convo.

Keep in mind that my mom has seen my favourite dancers on youtube, Natalia Fadda, Dariya Mitskevich, Kahina (brazil), and saida etc. Of those Saida is her least favourite and Natalia and Kahina are her favourites. She has seen Fifi Abdo and said "I can see why people like her she is very effortless and easy in her movements". She may not know bellydance technique but she has had some exposure to different dancers.
 

Greek Bonfire

Well-known member
MissVega, that is wild! What a backhanded compliment! If someone mistook me for either Kaya or Sadie, I have to admit that they are very attractive women and I would be impressed. But not like your grandma did. And I've had some pretty nasty relative myself who talked to me along those lines as well. Head games!!
 

LadyLoba

New member
I liked the post above mine...I watched the video, and while I enjoyed it myself...I have to say....if I were well versed in belly dance, I would have a very hard time determining what I thought of this from that perspective, simply because of the camera angles....I couldn't even see the dancing with the veils...I literally just saw veils...and they kept panning away and showing fire shooting...so it was kind of hard to follow the way I'd follow a belly dancer I was watching perform in person. Also, I must say, the intro kind of set the viewer up to see it as purely sexual....the way they kept showing the two male judges' faces....

not that there's anything wrong with that...a lot of men find bellydancing sexy...a lot of women do too....it's just that when the intro to something is two guys doing the "whoa hot girls!" thing...you're going to perceive what you see next in that light...
 
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