Appearance is Important

goddessyasaman

New member
I've read that the lolita fashion has nothing to do with Nabakov's novel, but just the name Lolita brings to mind very distasteful and perverted images that are not easily blanked out, especially since the style emphasizes sweet innocent little girl allure albeit on women as opposed to children.

Yasamen? You know lots about the style. Care to expound on provenance, wherefores and whys?

(Did we just hijack the thread or is this still enough related to appearances to pass?)
Sure, I have been Goth since I was a teen I have never liked pants (till I came across Yoga tribal fusion pants that is :lol: ) I love being cute :) and I love skirts and dresses so it started there for me, It has a lot to do with the way you carry yourself and the way you dress, People may think I'm wierd but I don't mind I am who I am :)

One of my fav places to shop is Gothic Clothing, Gothic Boots & Gothic Jewellery. New Rock Boots, goth clothing & goth jewellery. Goth boots and alternative clothing


Below are a few links about Gothic Lolita that may help you understand it a bit more (the fist one may be the most helpful :)


Dictionary - Definition of GOTHIC LOLITA


How to Be a Gothic Lolita - wikiHow



Urban Dictionary: gothic lolita
 

Jane

New member
Sorry I find the concept of a fashion associated with child molestation disturbing.

I realize Loli fashion claims not to be, but I'm not buying into that at all. It's called Lolita. It involves women dressing as de-sexed little girls. There is a ton of porn on the internet associated with it. I can't believe this is some sort of strange coincidence.

The book
Lolita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lolita Complex and Japanese culture
Lolicon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Disturbing images and material and NSFW
Lolicon - Encyclopedia Dramatica
NSFW

I hope "Loli Belly Dance" never happens. Ever.
 
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Ariadne

Well-known member
If you are familiar with Japanese fashion culture it makes perfect sense. To put it in perspective Japanese Lolita fashion has as much to do with Vladimir Nabokov's novel as Twilight has to do with Bram Stoker's Dracula, as in not much. They adopted the name without understanding the meaning behind it.

Japanese Lolita fashion is about clothing in a Victorian/Rococo style and has many variation from the goth to the most pretty and childish possible to elegant and sophisticated. Yes it's badly labeled but if I was going to compare it with a western fashion the closest I can think of is Steampunk. Take any loli girl and slap a set of goggles on her head and she could blend in perfectly.
 

goddessyasaman

New member
Sorry I find the concept of a fashion associated with child molestation disturbing.

I realize Loli fashion claims not to be, but I'm not buying into that at all. It's called Lolita. It involves women dressing as de-sexed little girls. There is a ton of porn on the internet associated with it. I can't believe this is some sort of strange coincidence.

The book
Lolita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Lolita Complex and Japanese culture
Lolicon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Disturbing images and material and NSFW
Lolicon - Encyclopedia Dramatica
NSFW

I hope "Loli Belly Dance" never happens. Ever.
Well I don't see "Loli Belly dance" ever happening :lol: as it's style of fashion and not a dance style to be mixed with belly dance, But I'm sure there are many people who may think in the same way you do, yet there is nothing one can do about perverts out there. As far as being associated with porn, that can be done with just about anything. So I'm sure it does not define the style.

I would not say that the fashion is associated with child molestation, yes the word Lolita means a sexually precocious young girl and A seductive adolescent girl yet if a grown woman is Lolita then it would mean as far as sexually precocious goes;

they are naive, innocent, or inexperienced in the act and practice of sex, but are very openly curious about it, and are not only willing to experiment with it, but are very forward in asking or expecting it.

If we are going down to the point anyway, yet I'm sure the creator of the style was not like "I know what would be awsome a Style that means it's ok to molest young girls...No it's a fashion style and thats that no one is forced to dress that way it's a like or dis-like, like most things :D

I think the links I gave tell you what you want to know, Not what people think just what the style is as I was asked :)
 

Jane

New member
They adopted the name without understanding the meaning behind it.
Ariadne, I wish I were more optimistic and had a better opinion of people in general.

My main point is, when it comes to belly dance costumes or street wear, how we dress and present ourselves in public is a choice. Our body styles are not a choice. People are judged harshly when choosing to wear looks or items different from cultural norms. When one dress different, or weird, one is noticed and treated differently. I'm not saying it's right, it's reality.

Other things are just in very poor taste.
 
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Darshiva

Moderator
Sorry I find the concept of a fashion associated with child molestation disturbing.

I realize Loli fashion claims not to be, but I'm not buying into that at all. It's called Lolita. It involves women dressing as de-sexed little girls. There is a ton of porn on the internet associated with it. I can't believe this is some sort of strange coincidence.
You know that that exact same argument is often used against bellydance. "You say it's not sexual/stripping/etc, but it is because *presents x evidence that isn't actually related at all to bellydance but perpetuates the myths & misinformation*"

As a bellydancer I would find that a difficult position to be in, because how could I justify defending bellydance from that sort of argument when I use the exact same one against something else that I don't understand that concerns me.
 

Jane

New member
You know that that exact same argument is often used against bellydance. "You say it's not sexual/stripping/etc, but it is because *presents x evidence that isn't actually related at all to bellydance but perpetuates the myths & misinformation*"

As a bellydancer I would find that a difficult position to be in, because how could I justify defending bellydance from that sort of argument when I use the exact same one against something else that I don't understand that concerns me.
Not really. We don't call ourselves "belly strippers" and then try to justify it as only a clothed dance form. Lolita uses a name with a direct link to child molestation. Perhaps lolita fashion needs to rethink their label name because it carries too much baggage in the public mind. Adult stripping is legal and for a lot of people, socially acceptable. Child molesting is not. It's not even in the same ball park. I'm not saying people who enjoy dressing that way are child molesters, but it carries a double social stigma with the GP by association with fetish wear and dressing eccentrically. No matter what it is, if you wear it outside of the privacy of your own home, someone will see it and have an opinion on it. I am not someone who is comfortable wearing extreme fashions in daily life.

In an academic discussion about the history of belly dance I can't deny that historically there has been some connections with the sex industry. On the other hand, a lot of things are connected with the sex industry. Rule #34 of the internet applies to life as well ;)
 

Reen.Blom

New member
Not even to mention girls and ladies who happened to bear the name of Lolita. what were their parents thinking? They should really rethink it, and since some creep wrote about a character of the same name now they are in trouble. :eek:)
 

Greek Bonfire

Well-known member
I think some people use the word Lolita loosely to describe a lot of things but also, Natacha Atlas sings the remix of Whatever Lola Wants so we may be seeing some kind of Lola Bellydance at least!
 

goddessyasaman

New member
Not really. We don't call ourselves "belly strippers" and then try to justify it as only a clothed dance form. Lolita uses a name with a direct link to child molestation. Perhaps lolita fashion needs to rethink their label name because it carries too much baggage in the public mind. Adult stripping is legal and for a lot of people, socially acceptable. Child molesting is not. It's not even in the same ball park. I'm not saying people who enjoy dressing that way are child molesters, but it carries a double social stigma with the GP by association with fetish wear and dressing eccentrically. No matter what it is, if you wear it outside of the privacy of your own home, someone will see it and have an opinion on it. I am not someone who is comfortable wearing extreme fashions in daily life.

In an academic discussion about the history of belly dance I can't deny that historically there has been some connections with the sex industry. On the other hand, a lot of things are connected with the sex industry. Rule #34 of the internet applies to life as well ;)
Yet again How is the word Lolita linked to Child molestation,(I think everyone knows why the word is used toward that but it does not change the meaning of the word) the words defintion does not say anything about a child that has been molested, I gave the word meaning early, granted people will see it that way, Because I'm sure a young girl can very well be molested even if she is not labled as a Lolita.

I understand what Darshiva is saying that is a good point.
 

Jane

New member
Please review the links I posted for the connection of the word "Lolita". Have you read the book? This is obviously a hot button issue for me.

Back to talking about belly dance now, sorry to derail the thread.

 

Ariadne

Well-known member
Ariadne, I wish I were more optimistic and had a better opinion of people in general.
I will grant you that it is possible in the beginning the term Lolita was chosen for the very reason you are offended but if so it hasn't stayed that way. Japan has a culture of "cute" that is very unique.
Cuteness in Japanese culture - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Lolita fashion has tied into that "kawaii" culture to the point that it has essentially redefined the meaning associated with the name. It's about being cute and innocent not seductive. It's permission to be girly without apology.
Tokyo's Lolita scene all about escapism | The Japan Times Online
Lolita fashion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Most of the people involved in it are probably not even aware of the connection to the book anymore. Personally I won't mind if it drops off the face of the planet.

My main pint is, when it comes to belly dance costumes or street wear, how we dress and present ourselves in public is a choice. Our body styles are not a choice. People are judged harshly when choosing to wear looks or items different from cultural norms. When one dress different, or weird, one is noticed and treated differently. I'm not saying it's right, it's reality.
That is very true and it is a look that will get you noticed in the US or most places outside of Japan. Frankly I think if I even considered it (even the Goth version) I would die of saccharine overload. At least they are getting noticed while dressing modestly instead of like little hookers.



@Aniseteph. I am underwhelmed by that video.
 

Greek Bonfire

Well-known member
Please review the links I posted for the connection of the word "Lolita". Have you read the book? This is obviously a hot button issue for me.

Back to talking about belly dance now, sorry to derail the thread.

I think loosely based on the above about Lolita, we have to be careful that we do not associate bellydancing with certain names or buzz words. We all know that it is a sensual dance but there is always that fine line that we have to keep in mind at all times that can very easily fall into sexual dance - the exotic then falls into erotic, then the whole hot mess of what bellydancing truly is versus what it is perceived to be starts all over again.

BTW Jane, I love this illustration!
 

Reen.Blom

New member
One thing when children depicted as sexual object or wear over sexualised clothes.

Totally different if adults dress in frills and bows and cute things. Also depends on the culture, not everywhere Nabokov's novel is known enough to give the name Lolita such connotation.

(I knew a Helena called Lolita by her family, obviously oblivious to the sinister connotation. Seems to be quite a common name in Spanish speaking countries).
 

Aniseteph

New member
I think loosely based on the above about Lolita, we have to be careful that we do not associate bellydancing with certain names or buzz words. We all know that it is a sensual dance but there is always that fine line that we have to keep in mind at all times that can very easily fall into sexual dance - the exotic then falls into erotic, then the whole hot mess of what bellydancing truly is versus what it is perceived to be starts all over again.
Yup. But in this case I don't think the gothic lolita bellydance or whatever it was was anything different to the usual pattern of <insert name of subculture or other interest> + <doing some form of belly dance> = "Fusion"

Of course YMMV depending on where you are and what you have to deal with, but I'm not sure whether I resent the sleazy connotations any more than the hot mess of anything-goes WTFusion.
 

goddessyasaman

New member
Please review the links I posted for the connection of the word "Lolita". Have you read the book? This is obviously a hot button issue for me.

Back to talking about belly dance now, sorry to derail the thread.

I have read your links,though they are nothing I have not read before, yet it does not change the meaning of the word no matter what is in a book, or what the pervert's of the world have made it, The word by no means is ok in its meaning But the truth none the less.

and I see that this is a hot button issues for you, as your issue is with Child molestation which I'm sure is a Hot button issue for everyone, so I do understand you in this.

Yes back to the Belly dance talk :) , I kind of had a bad feeling it would go this way if I was asked about it not much you can do about what others think though and thats fine after all everyone has an opinion :D

Now Appearance is Important in belly dance as far as your hair and costume ect. yet weight should not stop the dancer from dancing nor age.
 

Aniseteph

New member
... it does not change the meaning of the word no matter what is in a book, or what the pervert's of the world have made it, The word by no means is ok in its meaning But the truth none the less.
But the word is just a word. Meaning/ connotations change with the culture it is being used in. If you transport it out of one culture into another and it can leave its original cultural baggage behind and grow a whole new set of meanings, and cause confusion on both sides when people think they are talking about the same thing.

Just like belly dance. :D :cool:
 

goddessyasaman

New member
But the word is just a word. Meaning/ connotations change with the culture it is being used in. If you transport it out of one culture into another and it can leave its original cultural baggage behind and grow a whole new set of meanings, and cause confusion on both sides when people think they are talking about the same thing.

Just like belly dance. :D :cool:

Yes the Word is the word yet the word has a meaning(and no it does not grow new meanings because others wish it to) no matter what culture unless it is a word made by another culture that is close to said word then it could have a different meaning, Opinons are just opinons however. Yet the truth stands, The truth is not your friend, The truth is not there to comfort you, The truth is not there to be on your side(unless you like the truth), The truth can not change even if we don't like it, and thats all I'm saying is the truth.

A dance style does change culture to culture which can be cool, yet word meanings are a different area :)
 
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