TribalDancer

Isn't that a telling phrase right there? I loved all your history there, Aziyade, and so appreciate it! But this line right here really struck me...

Bellydance HAS a social dance component. What other dance forms, which we constantly compare ourselves to, have that? When was the last time you saw a group of people bust out into a ballet dance-off in a nightclub? How about a little lyrical dancing at your family gathering (well, maybe your family but not mine!)? How many people hire tap dancers to entertain them at weddings?

There is that social dance/ethnic dance component to bellydance which separates it from the western dances we so often compare ourselves to. We ask 'Why won't the GP take us seriously?' and yet, there is a very integral social/casual facet to the dance roots that makes it a very different animal...

Aisha Azar

Dear Sharon,
This is partly what I mean about the difference between the Western and Middle Eastern approach to the dance. Here, you exemplify the things that make Tribal akin to Middle Eastern as a movement in common with the Ghawazi.
The Middle Eastern approach is more in line with thinking the movement itself has only a partial meaning in the dance instead of being THE thing. The Middle Eastern dancer seems to think something more along the lines of "the music makes me respond with this general kind of movement", as opposed to thinking in terms of the movement alone, or the precise, perfect, technically out of human range movement.
In the West it seems to have become so much about movement that every other element of the dance is eating the dust. Not only that, but movement is ubiquitous and and many movements that we refer to as "belly dance: movement, can be seen in dances all around the world. They are not "belly dance" movement unless other dance criteria are met. I hope that makes sense.

Another thing that makes the dances very different is that belly dance is a solo performance art where Tribal seems to be based in a community participation on the physical level. Belly dance as a professional art form is a solo dance and the audience participation comes on the level of observer and responder rather than as participant. This in itself distinguishes the feelings, essences, and spirit of the dance forms from one another.
Regards,
A'isha

Aziyade

The fall of the Soviet Union sent a lot of dancers scrambling for jobs elsewhere. Up to that point, the government itself paid the salaries of the dancers, choreographers, directors, etc. (As opposed to in the United States, where the city ballets are businesses, and rely on feeder school tuition, fund-raisers and limited government arts grants to pay the bills.)

Soviet ballet dancers were among the highest paid in the world in the 80s and didn't have to rely on artists' unions to negotiate their contracts (assuming that wasn't all government propaganda.) Their feeder/training schools were EXTREMELY selective because they had a HUGE pool of dancers from all the countries in the USSR to choose from. Thus they became known as having the best training, and in the US there is definitely still a prejudice TOWARDS having a former Soviet dancer in your company or school. (Whether that prejudice is warranted or not is a matter of great debate.)

Aisha Azar

I wonder why they feel that way....I am an Egyptian dancer and I have danced in both clubs and restaurants and done occasional shows on cruise boats as well. I danced for a couple of years at one Arab owned restaurant alongside American belly dancers. Guess who they hired for all the Arab parties? They can and do distinguish the differences between the styles. I also danced as the featured dancer for 12 years at a different Arab owned restaurant. I have also danced in both Arab and Greek clubs in Seattle. I am too old now for both scenes, but there was certainly a preference for Egyptian dancers in those locations in the Northwest.

Aziyade

Actually, I was just reading the articles in Arabesque (1976 starting in Jan-feb issue) about Badia Massabni, and Badia's "Casino Opera" dancers were essentially a chorus line. They all danced together for some of the show, and then individual soloists would come forward and dance.

This is consistent with the article in Aramcoworld:
"In the early days, they did not appear singly but in a kind of chorus line, with Miss Badia in the front singing, clapping the sagat and occasionally dancing herself. Those who had particular talent made it to the front row and eventually stardom. Miss Gamal, as a child, used to perform western dances with her mother at Casino Opera. One night she found herself alone on stage and, overcoming her initial fright, began belly dancing. "Miss Badia was so happy that when I finished she came on stage, kissed me and gave me ten Egyptian pounds, a fortune in those days," Miss Gamal recalls."

Saudi Aramco World : La Danse du Ventre


So it started out on stage as a group dance. I keep trying to figure out from the pictures if the folk version of belly dance (before it got put on the stage) was done in groups or mostly singularly. The pictures seem to be about half-and-half. I know Andrea has said it was a solo dance, so I'm wondering f the other "dancers" pictured in so many drawings and paintings are just supplementary musicians, "set dressing," or if they were "partners" -- like the Ghawazee, who seem to (at least back in the day) perform in groups, but usually only 2 or 3 dance at once.


P.S.
Something I didn't realize until I had one of the extant "ads" for the Casino Opera translated was that Badia had actually opened a school there, which lasted at least until 1950 (she billed it as the first of its kind -- I don't know if she meant first dance school in general or first belly dance school.)

Aziyade

Let me give you this link so you know what I'm talking about:
NS Enterprises

On either Randa's or Diana's dvd, (can't remember which one right now) she starts off demonstrating the "folk" step and then shows how you do it "in Oriental style." The overtone of the technique part of this dvd is that there are 2 ways to dance -- 1. At a party with friends and 2. On stage as a paid performer.

This is consistent with what Shareen el Safy has taught -- that there is a social dance step, and an "Orientalized" version of the same. (Where a folk/social version would include a bigger twist/pivot or something in place, the more "Oriental" version would be more upright, lifted, possibly traveling, and usually smaller.

(The word "Oriental" is the word used by both of the above teachers -- it's not my word choice.)


Oh, I don't doubt that at all! That's what I think the above instructors are referring to when they talk about the folk or folkloric dance. (I asked Shareen if she was talking about Reda-style, and she said no.) I have social danced with the Lebanese and Turkish kids at our University and the Moroccan people I work with now. It's definitely a fun -- and pretty easy -- social dance, and the goal of the whole night is to just have fun. I LOVE dancing with the Lebanese boys! They were the first ones to teach me how to teach the "Basic Egyptian" (step and hip lift or hip twist) by telling me " you say this: "step forward and with the other foot you squish a bug." "

But they also insist that belly dance on stage is a different dance. They seem to think there's a lot of ballet involved. I don't argue.


The only thing I can think of is hip-hop or breakdancing, both of which are starting to develop a technique-based method of learning. ???

I mean, Irish step dance a la Riverdance comes from Irish folk dance, yes? I've only done a little Irish, but some of the "footwork" reminded me of my pitiful attempt to master Colin Dunne's video on "how to learn riverdance dancing" or whatever it was called. Modern step is stylized folk, at least as I understand it.

But I think I'm missing your point!

Wait - are we agreeing that there are sort of two different forms o' belly dance or did I miss something?


But it's really unfair to compare social/folk dance to ballet, because you will never see a ballet dancer break out in a "folk section" because that has through the years been considered "beneath" the art form. Character pieces are as close as you'll get, and that's still ballet with a couple of different traveling steps. The earliest codifiers wanted to make it more complicated than regular old set dancing. (which even the court nobles could master.)

Aisha Azar

Jodette spoke of the school and I have read about it in several places. She gets a bad rap, but a lot of her info turns out to be real when further study is done. Masabni had to train her dances in the new form as well teach choreographies. All the most famous dancers seemed to add their own improvisational skills so the dance. Tahia Carioca is very famous for adding samba to her opening numbers, implying very much that she was dancing solo. She was there in the 1930s at the Casino Opera The main thing is that the dance always retained the cultural essence, no matter what was thrown onto it, just as happens now in countries of origin.

cathy

Hi Aziyade,

In a seminar I took from Raqia Hassan about 15 months ago, she also specifically demonstrated two versions of the same movement and specifically identified one way of doing it as "folk" and the other way of doing it as "oriental."

Also, I most definitely think that Raks Sharki or Oriental dance (which I consider to be the best word in English for this dance, as you know!) has a corresponding social or folk form or style that was done before Badia Masabni and is still done by men, women, and children today--Raks Beledi. It's all Raks.

And as to whether any other dance forms have a social equivalent--what about ballroom dances? Dinner-dance-waltz & foxtrot might be going more the classroom and competition route now compared to say the 1960s, but the old tradition of girls learning from their dads isn't dead yet. This seems an apt comparison to me also in that I might be terrible at the waltz (true) but when I do the waltz to 3/4 time music, and when the winner of the international competition in waltz do it, we are doing the same dance, just one really very haltingly and amateurishly, and the other very polished and professional.



Just my two cents.

Cathy

Aziyade

What I think keeps getting lost is that all of us on this board understand the importance of studying the originating cultures, dances, and music in depth. Nobody is advocating ignoring the cultural "essence" altogether. Those of us who have "cross-trained" in Persian dance or Central Asian dance or Flamenco, or West African dance can see the contributions and influences of all these dances on one another. We see how they differ and how they are built around different rhythms. We all understand this.

One of the biggest sticking points for us is defining "bellydance" period. I think the vast majority of the dancers in the world would consider me a belly dancer, even though I'm sure I dance with a distinctly American accent. For those who don't think I'm a belly dancer -- it's a free country. Change the channel. You each have to decide for yourself at what point you maintain the cultural "essence" while still dancing like YOU. (I really recommend reading what Ibrahim (Bobby) Farrah has to say on the matter. Whether you like his choreography or not, he's a very well-spoken person who has some VERY interesting things to say about making art out of ethnic dance.)

There are SO many more resources out there now than were available when my teacher started dancing in the 60s. There seems to be MORE of a demand for information on ethnic dance than there ever has been. There is more scholarly information about it, more actual field recordings, more videos, more 1st hand accounts -- more of everything. Including fusion. But it's not hard anymore to find good sources for whatever you want.


As for fusions --

I have video and have been to workshops with real Egyptians, doing real Egyptian style. Loie Fuller's fabric manipulation didn't keep me from finding real Egyptians. And I didn't have to look that hard.

I've taken class with some great Turkish style and Turkish folk dance instructors. Ruth St. Denis's oriental fantasy nonsense didn't keep me from find authentic Turks teaching authentic Turkish dance. And I really didn't have to look that hard.

I have videos of Reda Troupe and Aida Nour's solo show. I can study with Aida if I want to go back to Dallas. I have quasi-local Egyptian and Syrian instructors to study with. Neither Bou Saada nor Jamila Salimpour nor the Bellydance Superstars have prevented me from having access to this. And I don't have to look that hard to find good quality instruction.

Despite Suhaila's "fusions," one workshop with her was a life-changing event for me, and I swear it saved my marriage. The BDSS have just released an instructional video on basic Hula. I haven't seen it yet, but I plan to get it because I'm interested in Hula and prior to this the available resources have been scant. They are distributing the Bellydancers of Cairo dvd which is a FABULOUS resource that I would probably have heard of eventually, but I heard of first through a BDSS performance dvd insert.

Do I like all the fusion dances? No, some of them bore me to tears. Some of them wow me beyond words. But what I don't like I can always fast forward through, daydream through, or yes, even CHANGE THE CHANNEL! mwahahaha.


carry on.

Aisha Azar

I do this same thing, referring to one as professional belly dance and the other as beledi or shaabi, or Saidi. Beledi is one of the dances from which belly dance took root movement, but the entire psychological and social concept is different, along the meaning and purpose dances. Since one is belly dance and one is not, I do not refer to them both as "belly dance", though they both might be "oriental" in that they come from the Middle East. It is also true that in Egyptian belly dance, the music sometimes dictates that the dancer utilize the more social form as opposed to the professional form to interpret the music or mood. These are not two forms of belly dance. They are two separate forms of dance that use some of the same movement base. I have studied a lot with Shareen el Safy and she does make a distinction between what the people do and what professional dancers do. Fifi Abdou has made that distinction on a video that is available through Saut wa Soura. If you are interested in knowing which one, I will go downstairs and get the title for you. Otherwise I am inclined to sit here and pop in when I get stuck on my lecture.
right now I am trying find out when Fifi's first big public show was.... Not having much luck so if anyone knows of a resource that has this info.
Regards,
A'isha