BDSS Babelesque - Page 4

Aisha Azar · 07-28-2008, 05:27 PM

Dear Aya,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria_Aya

Hi all
I can give a new point of view to the whole thing about arabs and oriental dance as on Friday night I had a huge fight with a restaurant owner in Athens (he is egyptian).
I went to his place with some friends from Egypt also, it was a mix company with dancers and egyptian community in Greece.
The place had a "dancer" the girl was just dancing greek chifteteli in a bellydance costume.
She was fun and polite and decent and a good greek chifteteli dancer.
She danced 3 songs running around the tables, all the egyptians in my table was laughing at her, and asking me to stand up and dance.
I didnt ofcourse, until she left the place.
After there was a baladi and stood up and danced.
And the owner came and he was saying aiwa this is dance blah bla bla.
And i asked him, so why since this is dance you dont hire dancers that know how to dance?
He said why? to pay more? I get girls for 30 euro per night !!!
What happens is that THESE girls go out and think that they are master's since an EGYPTIAN hired them !!!!
And we started fighting over this.
Dont know about other countries but over here i havent heard the word bellydancer from an arab, its raqassa or raqs sharqi or baladi or saidi and this is it.
Maybe because what doesnt fit in this category they call them "chifteteloudes" which come from the word chifteteli and they add the oudes like a bliah thing.
Anyway I total agree with Aisha that we GOT to respect our audience if we want to be considered serious artists.
About the BDSS for me its show bizz and it follows the rules of the business.

Maria Aya, Greece

Though I have not had anyone fight about it, I have had the same experience as you with my Arab friends many times. they see and know the difference between dance styles and do not call it all the same thing. I have had them laugh at dancers,too, and sometimes dancers who Americans consider to be fabulous, because they are so far away from what Arabs consider to be belly dance. I think since belly dance is an English term, it is understandable that they would not use it in Greece, maybe?

And, Whew.... thanks for understanding my point abut the audience.
Regards,
A'isha

Aziyade · 07-28-2008, 05:46 PM

Much snippage about Suhaila.

You wrote:

Quote:

Suhaila left the show for some very solid reasons

And I'm informing you that SHE NEVER LEFT the "show" because she was never PART of the show. A large number of "guest artists" have danced on the same stage at a BDSS show (usually the host of the previous night's workshop) but that doesn't make them part of the whole BDSS show, and in at least 2 cases, the guest was not paid in any way.

Quote:

Not sure what this has to do with the product that they are putting out now.Also, I have watched the growth from the beginning of the BDSS also and see it a little differently than you do.

Because you keep harping on the "superstars" thing, and I'm just telling you it predated any inklings of a touring show.

And I don't really see how you can "interpret" the growth of the whole thing, or see it as happening differently. It's not like any of this is secret.

Quote:

The mediocre talent in the name of Middle Eastern dance is the issue.

First of all, they don't call it "Middle Eastern Dance" they call it belly dance. To some people this is significant. I know to you they are one and the same. To the rest of the world, maybe not so.

While I would argue that some of the performances are less than inspiring to me, I would not accuse any of the dancers of being "mediocre." I may be unimpressed by a video one of the posters here linked to, but that does not mean she is "mediocre." I may be unimpressed by the dancing demonstration on an instructional dvd. That does not mean the instructor is a mediocre dancer.

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This is not rumors. I know you may not think much of me,

On the contrary, I consider you an excellent source of information on Khaliji dance. Just because I disagree with you or have had arguments with you does not mean I don't like you in some way.

Quote:

but there are people in some places who consider me to be very good at what I do. I approached a producer of some very well known fine music when I did my DVD. She was very interested and steered me to the people who own the music and they wanted an arm and a leg for very little music. She got really pissed about that and contacted them and wanted to know why they wanted to charge me so much when some others did not ask permission or pay a fee. She was told they could not keep track of everyone who was doing that.

And what does this have to do with your assertion that someone told you Miles pirated her music?? Are you talking about Leyla? Loraine? They knew what they were getting into when they signed the contract.

This bears no resemblance to "piracy" -- which is what you accused Miles of doing.

Quote:

I now understand that what she meant by Saidi is not what dancers mean,as in a specific dance style coming from a certain region.

So should I judge you NOW, based on what you know NOW, or based on what you wrote on these boards for 5 years? It's no different from the situation with Suhaila. Anyway...

Quote:

I never said she was on tour with them did I? She HAS danced with them, as I said.

I quote:

Quote:

Suhaila left the show for some very solid reasons

And I'm just explaining that you are wrong. She never left cause she was never part of it.

Sit down and talk with her for 10 minutes about it. She will explain in detail about artistic vision, and her artistic goals. She doesn't agree with Miles' vision, and doesn't really want to be part of that overall vision. That doesn't mean they can't be creative playmates and bounce ideas off each other, or criticize each other when one thinks the other is getting too big for the britches.

Quote:

Again the issue is not weight. the BDSS often have little or no talent for Middle Eastern dance. I told M. C. that I had no problem at all with him filling the stage with young beautiful girls. Many of them have no talent for the dance and he rarely does anything that can honestly be called M E dance, or for that matter, belly dance.

Well, obviously your opinion is your opinion and I'm sure it's shared by some. I personally think they have some tremendous dancers. Most of the new American-born Roses I've seen dancing in shows or on video, and I would not accuse them of having no talent for dance. I am unimpressed by some, and impressed by others. Even Sonia is growing on me

Quote:

Is that any excuse for not performing great belly dance or putting on a Scottish kilt or doing flips or sitting on a chair in a top hat and calling it belly dance?

I don't like the flashdance piece either, but I think the dancer herself is actually a good belly dancer. In MY opinion, this crosses the line of what is too much in fusion. Again, just my opinion.

Then again, I think running across the stage and landing in the splits is a little ridiculous. But it worked for Fifi Abdo, playing her character piece.

Quote:

Since the pool is not set up to draw from he best possible dancers, then it is ridiculous to call it the "Belly dance Superstars", since many of them do not belly dance and most are certainly not superstars.

LET IT GO! The name "superstars" predates the show. Maybe it's ridiculous, but it's there and it's sticking and it's not going away.

Quote:

groups like them mislead a generation of dancers into thinking they were learning an authentic ethnic belly dance when they were not performing it.

Sigh. Who got to decide what was authentic back then? Certainly not the Arab imports like Jodette! I'm sure you're heard her instructional record. How is any of what she's teaching "authentic" to what we know of Egyptian dance now? Ozel Turkbas taught a very different kind of Turkish dancing -- not "authentic" enough to Turkish dance scholars today. Morocco isn't teaching what Dina and Randa are doing. Is Morocco more or less authentic than Dina?

It's all just kind of silly at base level. Authentic "belly dance." Authentic to WHAT population, at what era, and in what social class??? The more I learn, the more I realize that all of these kinds of things tie into what and who defines "authenticity" and it's not as simple as "this is authentic and this isn't."

But this is really going nowhere. We've been arguing the same thing on different forums for at least 5 years now.

Aisha Azar · 07-28-2008, 06:02 PM

Dear Aziyade,
You are correct, we will never agree.
I also happen to be an excellent source of information on Egyptian belly dance, but feel that my Turkish and Lebanese info is very sketchy, so I rarely contribute in those areas.
As I said once before, Suhaila creates her public image as she goes along. I know this firsthand and not from rumor, so don't jump down my throat. A for her teaching Egyptian and me calling what I learned Saidi, at least I was in the ballpark and the style really can be called Saidi.
Anyway, you are right that this is going nowhere, so I will stop now.
Regards,
A'isha

Marya · 07-28-2008, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Maria_Aya

Hi all. Dont know about other countries but over here i havent heard the word bellydancer from an arab, its raqassa or raqs sharqi or baladi or saidi and this is it.
Maybe because what doesnt fit in this category they call them "chifteteloudes" which come from the word chifteteli and they add the oudes like a bliah thing.
Maria Aya, Greece

Maybe that is because they are not speaking English? I assume you were speaking Greek?

Marya

Aziyade · 07-28-2008, 07:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aisha Azar

You may be sarcastic about it, but often times, they WILL tell you what they think is the most polite thing, that being more what you want to hear than their honest opinion, unless you know them well. Most of the Arabs that I know are very clear that there is a big difference between what the Americans call "belly dance" and what they do. Yes, I'm such a bitch for even bringing that up. I would assume it is because it is what you do not want to hear.

This is what I don't get about you. This is where I think you are being a tad arrogant. You assume quite a bit about anyone who says "in my experience" and proceeds to tell you something that doesn't fit your theories or is something YOU don't want to hear.

How do you know HOW WELL I know the people of whom I speak? You don't know me. You've never been to my area of the country, and yet you presume to tell me what the Arabs around me are thinking. Or you tell me that they're lying to me to be polite. You are not privy to our conversations. You can't tell me WHAT they mean or don't mean.

Perhaps I should give you an example and write out what has been said about an instructional video produced by one of the members of this forum?

Quote:

You did not even mention cultural spirit, essence and feeling as part of the dance itself, yet these are the strongest elements that define the dance.

Yes I did. You chose to miss it.

Maria, I know your story well! I've seen a few young restaurant dancers that I've thought needed to go back to class for a few years! And two Greek restaurants in the Midwest have complained that they can't get a tsiftitelli dancer -- that they keep getting Belly dancers!

Around here, the general feeling is that Egyptian style doesn't belong in restaurants, and the dancers of that style sort of have an "attitude" about that. It's not that they're "too good" for restaurants, but they don't feel that a restaurant is the appropriate venue for Egyptian dance. I tend to agree, but I don't see a whole lot of opportunities outside of the restaurant industry here. of course, I don't see a WHOLE lot of difference between a Casino boat and a restaurant, but I guess it's a subtle difference.

jenc · 07-28-2008, 08:25 PM

I don't understand this American cabaret not being bellydance. What about Uk bellydance. We don't have a tradition of a fusion style in that way. Some of us dance with an accent of our country, or a generalised Western accent I am sure. This doesn't mean that we are dancing a completely diffrent dance. If we learn our craft and practice and improve, we may lose our accent and dance Egyptian style. How could we say when that happened exactly. Would we all agree on that exact moment. How could we say that after that moment we wre bellydancing and before that we were what.........????

Aziyade · 07-28-2008, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenc

I don't understand this American cabaret not being bellydance. What about Uk bellydance. We don't have a tradition of a fusion style in that way. Some of us dance with an accent of our country, or a generalised Western accent I am sure. This doesn't mean that we are dancing a completely diffrent dance. If we learn our craft and practice and improve, we may lose our accent and dance Egyptian style. How could we say when that happened exactly. Would we all agree on that exact moment. How could we say that after that moment we wre bellydancing and before that we were what.........????

wrong, I suppose.

Actually, I think you would be accused of doing fusion dancing - ???

However in my mind for it to be a fusion, it has to fuse two distinct forms together.

Reen.Blom · 07-28-2008, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jenc

I don't understand this American cabaret not being bellydance. What about Uk bellydance. We don't have a tradition of a fusion style in that way. Some of us dance with an accent of our country, or a generalised Western accent I am sure. This doesn't mean that we are dancing a completely diffrent dance. If we learn our craft and practice and improve, we may lose our accent and dance Egyptian style. How could we say when that happened exactly. Would we all agree on that exact moment. How could we say that after that moment we wre bellydancing and before that we were what.........????

ANd not just UK, how about other European Countries, how about Russia, Ukraine? Surely it is not 'authentic' and say many Russian dancers have ballet and/or ballroom dance background that can sometimes be seen in the way they dance( I mean arm and leg postitions) So all of them not belly dancing either?

Nobody dances Tango outside Argentine I assume?

Aziyade · 07-28-2008, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reen.Blom

Nobody dances Tango outside Argentine I assume?

Not if they have a non-Argentinian "accent" I guess.

Speaking of Argentinians -- do you guys all know Saida? She did the dvds with Mario Kirlis? WOW! That was a serious Superstar. Too bad she was only with them for a season or so... Talk about audience connection! Sigh. I thought "this girl could fall down a flight of stairs and make it look like art, effortless and graceful."

Reen.Blom · 07-28-2008, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aziyade

Not if they have a non-Argentinian "accent" I guess.

Speaking of Argentinians -- do you guys all know Saida? She did the dvds with Mario Kirlis? WOW! That was a serious Superstar. Too bad she was only with them for a season or so... Talk about audience connection! Sigh. I thought "this girl could fall down a flight of stairs and make it look like art, effortless and graceful."

Oh saida is so awesome! Mario rocks as well BTW!

07-28-2008, 06:02 PM	#33 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,464	Dance Dear Aziyade, You are correct, we will never agree. I also happen to be an excellent source of information on Egyptian belly dance, but feel that my Turkish and Lebanese info is very sketchy, so I rarely contribute in those areas. As I said once before, Suhaila creates her public image as she goes along. I know this firsthand and not from rumor, so don't jump down my throat. A for her teaching Egyptian and me calling what I learned Saidi, at least I was in the ballpark and the style really can be called Saidi. Anyway, you are right that this is going nowhere, so I will stop now. Regards, A'isha

07-28-2008, 08:25 PM	#36 (permalink)
jenc V.I.P. Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Colchester UK Posts: 1,029	I don't understand this American cabaret not being bellydance. What about Uk bellydance. We don't have a tradition of a fusion style in that way. Some of us dance with an accent of our country, or a generalised Western accent I am sure. This doesn't mean that we are dancing a completely diffrent dance. If we learn our craft and practice and improve, we may lose our accent and dance Egyptian style. How could we say when that happened exactly. Would we all agree on that exact moment. How could we say that after that moment we wre bellydancing and before that we were what.........????