Aisha Azar

If you choose to think your audience is ignorant, then yes, I am calling you arrogant. No matter where the audience is in the world, we need to be aware that we never know who is in it and what they know. therefore, we treat them all as equals. Ballerinas go on the stage assuming that their audiences have some understanding and appreciation of their talents and what they are offering. I worked with Leonard Fowler for a few years and he was sure of it! Middle Eastern dancers need to learn to do the same thing, instead of assuming ignorance on the part of their audiences. If you can't do that, then you have already treated them with as little respect as possible, so why should they care about you? As for the rest of what you are saying, I have already explained the situation as it was 15 and even 10 and even 5 years ago in comparison to what it is now. I can see the progression and I can also see that many dancers ARE taking the responsibility to clearly define what they are doing for their audiences. this is a definite step in the right direction and I am not going to thumb my nose at it.
There is no PART that LOOKS authentic. It is a thread that runs through every breath the dancer takes. Even less educated dancers can often spot it. It is not something that can be separated out.

jenc

How dare you assume that I would patronise my audience. I can tell you that in my neck of the woods the dancers wouldn't know what you are talking about, let alone the audience. Of course should a Saudi wander into a Clacton Hafla, I am sure we wouldn't assume anything.

My Egyptian teacher is happy to call what we do belllydance, even when she teaches us a routine to Shakira, but I suppose she doesn't count as she's not one of your arab friends.
I am happy to see dancers define what they are doing for their audiences - but I thought you said that the GP knows the difference anyway. I REPEAT If dancers don't know the difference how do you expect the GP to know it.
The vast majority of dancers, let alone audiences, or the GP have never seen anything approaching this standard of dance. are you likely to get them to call what they do anything other than bellydance.......... I don't think so. Even if they had seen the real thing they would still call what they do BD, because they aspire towards it. as they do not ever see it .

you remind me of Humpty Dumpty

'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone,' it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.' ...

lizaj

We have yet to convince the vast majoirty of the GP over here(UK) that belly dancing aka Arabic dance, Egyptian dance, Turkish dance, danse orientale is anything other than low brow entertainment. A few of the arty crowd may come out of curiosity and then see it as otherwise.
Presenting ME and North African folkloric dance to the GP might result it being elevated to the status of something cultural!
Mass media footage has been Sophie Mei on Britains Got Talent..colourful, fun, glamorous and probably did little to elevate the dance up there with ballet and contemporary etc. But I hasten to say no harm done either. And again some exposure thanks to BDSS. I would say the GP saw bellydancing on a par with the slick showgirl and again no harm done there.
Whatever my point the GP is ignorant about all the variety that is belly dance just as I am ignorant about say...football (soccer). To me it's 12 men kicking a ball about a bit of grass. I don't understand what makes a game or player great and don't bother trying to. That doesn't make me stupid no more than it makes a person who has had little or no exposure to belly dance.
Ignorance is bliss they say but it isn't necessarily an insult..if it is I am inordinately stupid regarding golf and quantum physics.
The best we can do in this country is put on put on interesting, informative and entertaining shows in local arts theatres that expose the dance as being worthy of being seen in a wider cultural celebration.
This is not to decry the efforts of skilful restaurant and party dancers who go all out to be tasteful and classy.
We will also always dance with a Western accent but we can still do justice to the technique and flavour of Egypt and Turkey and if we get the tuition Am Camb.
Tribal well there's a scene that can fit in with street dancing and contemporary dance in festival and the like.

To return to BDSS: I am afraid they appeal to an informed audience already in the BDscene and very few beyond that at this present time and I don't see much change. And that informed audience will either like or be disasatisfied.
Those of us welded to Egyptian dance will only ever see them as second best to visting Egyptians but that isn't to say they are not welcome. I just hope the next show is a lot better than the one in Blackpool as I heard a lot of dancers saying they would support Raqs B as a workshop event but not the BDSSstage show

Aisha Azar

Yes, you tend to always fall back on scornful and sarcastic rather than try to carry on a civilized conversation. I even fall into the occasional trap of doing that myself when I talk to people like you.

Reen.Blom

That's a great point, Jenc! This is so often the case.... Indeed most ppl think that bellydancer is a woman in skmpy outfit mocing hips to shakira...LOL

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Sara

I'm not sure where I stand on this topic. I understand about the Gp perceptions. None of my friends have a clue what Raqs Sharki is when I tell them, and when I say Belly dance they tease me a bit for being a 'dark horse' and all that.

But then again, I am always too scared to undermine the audience. I am one of these people that has to take into account every possibility. And so I'm never under prepared (unless it's for important things like uni stuff).

I guess you have to find a balance. I think in Britain at least right now belly dancing is still seen as wiggling your hips in a two piece and not a lot more. At least from my experience. My ex still dunt get it and thinks I spend my time winking at other lads and smiling while shaking my boobs at them. But better to be prepared than not.

My gram always said that the rabbit with many holes is less likely to get caught than the rabbit with just one.

Btw- did I spell the show name right? I keep reading it as Babel-esque, as in the babel fish off Hitchhikers guide to the galaxy.

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Aziyade

Good, it means you're still considering all the possibilities.

Of course, I will only speak for the Arabs and Turks I PERSONALLY have known, and I suppose you could always argue and say that they're lying to me or telling me what I want to hear, but what I have got from them over the years is this:

"It's just dance."

That is the overwhelming response to ANY of my questions about authenticity. Nashwa in KY likes Tribal. She thinks it's a more artistic way of representing bellydance (her words). Who am I to argue with an Egyptian? ;P

Many of my Arab associates truly enjoy Rachel Brice, and none of them say she's not a belly dancer. (Although they all seem to hate her new costuming style.) Rachel doesn't really "do it" for me, but who am I to argue with Egyptians and Moroccans and Lebanese when it comes to how they define "belly dance" ? I have one friend who is INSANE over Suhaila -- even one particular performance that I'm not crazy about. He claims she "really feels the music; she really is a DANCER" (emphasis his).

But 9.999 times out of 10, unless I'm talking to a musician, the Arab/Turkish people I'VE met don't care about "styles." They know it all as "belly dance" -- and they use THAT phrase -- not Raqs Sharqi, not Beledi. If I listen to a conversation in Arabic, a lot of times I will hear the phrase "Ra'issa" (dancer) but I've never heard any of them say "Raqs Sharqi." Of course, they're probably just censoring themselves around me because they want to tell me what I want to hear.


What does the general public think is bellydance? Take your own informal poll. Ask the people you work with to define bellydance, demonstrate it, tell you where they would find it. In the US, most people would say you'd find it in Greek/Lebanese restaurants, because that's been the biggest venue for 30 years. They may imitate clapping finger cymbals, or pull a pretend veil over their eyes. This IS belly dance in the US. It's not "Raqs Sharqi" -- which I think 99% of us would define as the specifically Egyptian style of the general "Belly dance." And it's not Raqs Beledi. Or Shaabi. Or Schikhatt or the polka. It's BELLY DANCE.

Are some fusion dancers becoming annoyed that hiphop-fusion artists are crossing over and calling it "belly dance" ? Well yes. But the pendulum is swinging, and right now it's on its farthest out-swing. Dancers are trying to make a name for themselves by trying to out-do one another in being "different." This will pass. The SAME thing happened/happens in modern dance and it happened in ballet after the years of the "superstars" in ABT and NYCB. The pendulum settles. This too shall pass...


The BDSS are catering to their audience. The earlier shows were less fusion and more straight-up Cab and Tribal-fusion. The dancers in the audience didn't want that. They said so on Tribe, on Bhuz. They told Miles they wanted to see something DIFFERENT. So now they have more fusion/experimental pieces. If 75% of their feedback had been "show more ethnic dance" you can bet Miles would have more ethnic dance. But those people clamoring for more "ethnic dance" (like me) were in the minority. We were LOUD but we were still the minority.

As for me:
I adore Egyptian style especially the "golden age" style, and I'm really liking the weirdness I'm seeing coming from Randa. I'm not a huge fan of what Aida and Lubna were teaching in Texas. I'm not a big Raqia fan, either. I still love Sohair Zaki and I still can't stand most of what I've seen of Nagwa Fouad.

I DO believe belly dance to be, at heart, a dance with ethnic roots, and I believe we SHOULD stay true to those roots -- but it's a matter of DEGREE. I don't think "American Cabaret" (or whatever we're calling it) is a FUSION dance, and I refuse to call it that. It's belly dance. I don't think tribal is a FUSION dance. It's belly dance, just stylized, and I'm going to call it belly dance. Tribal FUSION may be a fusion of Belly dance and something -- but I don't do or teach that so I don't usually comment on it.

I believe there IS an essence, a spirit to the dance that defines what is Turkish dance and what is Egyptian dance, AND what is American Belly dance. I think the essence exists in the dancer's relationship to the music, and in her understanding of the folk roots of that music. When the dancer responds, viscerally, to the sound of the Qanoun, or the violin, or especially for Turkish dancers, the clarinet or mijwiz -- when you really GET that internalized, and you can't HELP but respond physically to what you're hearing -- THAT, THAT is the "Essence" that I believe makes it really "belly dance" and not just torso/hip articulations.

your mileage may vary...


Yep, Babel (Tower Of) from (Babylon) -- in this case meaning "Like the entertainment found in ancient Babylon."

( BTW - A gorgeous reconstruction of the Lion Gate of Babylon is featured in the otherwise lame film "Alexander." )

Aziyade

He has been listening to the MAJORITY opinion, and the majority opinion (on Bhuz and Tribe) is they want more double veil spinning, fire, and fusion.

You and I are part of the minority. I told him I wanted to see Ghawazee and Schikhatt. He said when he got 100 posts a day from dancers wanting to see that, he'd consider adding it. Again, we're a VOCAL minority, but we're still the minority. Just check out tribe, the message boards for the BDSS, and any of the facebook/myspace sites. I know the Copeland group certainly is!


I said:
I'd never really thought anything about the whole idea until I read the Desert Roses casting call email that everyone went NUTS over. INSTANT press. No money down. Controversy explodes and amidst all the craziness, I end up buying my first Hakim CD, introducing me to Miles's record label. Brilliant, really.
My point was that I bought a CD that I probably never would have, simply because I kept hearing all this buzz about Mondo Melodia and Ark 21. Heck, I drove over 4 hours to see the first show just because I kept hearing about it so much. I would NOT have done that, if people hadn't made such a huff about that one email.

Brilliant, again. All press is good press when it sells tickets.

Maria_Aya

Hi all
I can give a new point of view to the whole thing about arabs and oriental dance as on Friday night I had a huge fight with a restaurant owner in Athens (he is egyptian).
I went to his place with some friends from Egypt also, it was a mix company with dancers and egyptian community in Greece.
The place had a "dancer" the girl was just dancing greek chifteteli in a bellydance costume.
She was fun and polite and decent and a good greek chifteteli dancer.
She danced 3 songs running around the tables, all the egyptians in my table was laughing at her, and asking me to stand up and dance.
I didnt ofcourse, until she left the place.
After there was a baladi and stood up and danced.
And the owner came and he was saying aiwa this is dance blah bla bla.
And i asked him, so why since this is dance you dont hire dancers that know how to dance?
He said why? to pay more? I get girls for 30 euro per night !!!
What happens is that THESE girls go out and think that they are master's since an EGYPTIAN hired them !!!!
And we started fighting over this.
Dont know about other countries but over here i havent heard the word bellydancer from an arab, its raqassa or raqs sharqi or baladi or saidi and this is it.
Maybe because what doesnt fit in this category they call them "chifteteloudes" which come from the word chifteteli and they add the oudes like a bliah thing.
Anyway I total agree with Aisha that we GOT to respect our audience if we want to be considered serious artists.
About the BDSS for me its show bizz and it follows the rules of the business.

Maria Aya, Greece

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Aisha Azar

You may be sarcastic about it, but often times, they WILL tell you what they think is the most polite thing, that being more what you want to hear than their honest opinion, unless you know them well. Most of the Arabs that I know are very clear that there is a big difference between what the Americans call "belly dance" and what they do. Yes, I'm such a bitch for even bringing that up. I would assume it is because it is what you do not want to hear.


The issue is and always has been that they, for the most part, think what they are seeing is authentic belly dance from Middle Eastern countries, whether or not they have any more than a vague Orientalist view of what that might be. Its easy enough to ask people "Where does belly dance come from?" and they answer usually that it comes from "Arabia", or Turkey or sometimes India. (I took that poll years ago.) They never say America, oddly enough..... Some people know a little more abut it and say Egypt or Lebanon, or talk about when they were living in a country of origin and used to go and see the dancers

It may or may not pass without some help from dancers. I have watched it get continuously worse for the last 30 some years...


Having spoken to him at length when he was a little tipsy, I got an entirely different story. He refuses to do any folkloric, he says because he doesn't want that kind of show. It has nothing to do with what anyone wants or does not want. He has stated repeatedly that he is interested in the general public, (not belly dancers) as his target audience. Instead, he is getting the same niche market that we all draw.... namely dancers.

Refusing to call it what it is does not change its nature, and it is indeed fusion. It's essence, the approach to how to execute movements, the mishmosh of musical input, the costumes even, are all a fusion of west and east, and there is no pure cultural essence except one, and that is purely American. Why is it not belly dance? Because belly dance has a meaning to the general public, and to people from countries of origin, that means those specific dances, with those specific cultural essences, not something created in California.

American Tribal is all about fusion and its meaning and essence is far removed from anything of Middle Eastern belly dance.

Yes, and the essence of American Oreintal is very different from that of authetnic ethnic belly dance. It is purely American. Belly dance is not an American dance.


You did not even mention cultural spirit, essence and feeling as part of the dance itself, yet these are the strongest elements that define the dance.

Regards,
A'isha