jenc

What about Bernard Leach and Lucy? Rie. Beautifully functional pottery. Not that anyone would dare use it at that price?

gisela

I would consider that craft. These are very undefined terms though there have been attempts at defining them academically. It comes out highly individual though. It is also in the semantics. Of course it's an art to master those skills but that doesn't make it fine arts. I don't necessarily see a quality difference.

__________________
You need chaos in your soul to create a dancing star-nietzsche

karena

I have heard in the past that the art/craft distinction is rooted in the relative importance on male/female activity. The former was male dominated, the latter for the female. Therefore one was more respected that the other.

I don't think art is better than entertainment. There is alot of self-serving, egotistic art. And I too wish people wouldn't be scared of art, there's alot on emperor's new clothes surrounding it. I don't want to be provoked or see new ground broken all the time. And I don't think money is the driver. There are lots of romantic landscapes etc churned out now that sell. To me they are not art (had they been produced during the romantic movement maybe they would had have been), but there are lots of people plugging away doing non commerical stuff and getting nothing back. There are the big winners, who get bought up by Saatchi and Saatchi but they are a tiny minority.

And I ask questions. Loads of them. I often have to stop myself when the rest of the group start to sigh . But, I won't belittle a teacher through them. So I won't keep on digging if I don't get the answer I want. Or if I think they are wrong, I don't point it out in front of a class. To me, that is inappropriate. We are all just people with views. I go away, do my own research and form my own opinions. But then to me, everything is just an opinion anyway; I don't get hung up on the whole 'fact' thing - there aren't any.

And you'll be pleased to hear no-one has asked me to roll my head back since about 1985. Must be a southern thing

__________________
"Nothing is black and white, it's all shades of grey" Me

Caroline_afifi

My other little ranting post should have been in the thread related to Neon's article really. It was a litle out of place here sorry.

I am not trying to start a debate as such and get pedantic.

This is a real issue in order to defend the dance as a form of Art, which of course I can do, but others here often say things better than I mean and offer something very profound.
I cant go into details but another country who is the Arab captal of Culture for this year (did you know there was one?) sent an ambassador to meet us and she was not impressed with dance as part of the programme. I would like to give more but just cant at this moment in time, sorry.

The other thing, the Arts Council of England very rarely give any money to groups/artists who do not have 'enough' Middle Eastern people participating.

karena

There is something I read recently about the struggle to get dance accepted as on par with the other arts. I really can't remember where I read it. It might have been here, it might I have even been you Caroline. I am racking my brains... But that will have been dance in the West I think. It may not translate to the East.

And did you know there are 2 European capitals of culture. I'm sure you did, but I only found that out recently.

__________________
"Nothing is black and white, it's all shades of grey" Me

Caroline_afifi

Ballet is seen as a 'high art' or 'fine Art' etc. perhaps this title is to do with suffering? the class of the audience? who knows?
I think the title is riddle with class bias but art is moving and we have the likes of Banksy (graffiti artist) on the high ranks now and that is great.

In the UK, we have a trend in 'working class' art and museums etc. it is of course something that people have fought for and rightly so, but colloquial accents and dialects are also known for good selling and money making too.

Traditional arts are pretty much accepted etc. the problem is the fact that most people whom practice this dance world wide are not from the Middle East and I come up against this time and time again.

I have explained the cultural and religous contexts of course and I am not personally prepared to have a dancer of Arab Heritage who is a bad dancer over the likes of someone else from elsewhere is a fine practitioner from the field. Arts councils are more likely to fund the former as opposed to the latter.
So art in some places is connected to peoples and culture from which it is born.

It is hugely complex, especially when you have to discuss the image. Did you know anything that sparkles is not art?

Look at the clothes people wear when they attempt to elevate the status of this dance etc. look at the divisions which have arisen even within the dance community itself. I am interested in the AM CAB situation and especially on hearing that it was a label given to a certain aspect of the dance in an attempt to put it down. If this was the case then why do people use it?
Is it like gay people calling themself queer?

I would love to know what the rest of the world is like in relation to this subject.

deelybopper

Wow! Saw this thread yesterday, went away to ponder, and look at all the replies! I've been wanting to write an article on this very subject for a long time, but every time I start I get so overwhelmed by my head I don't seem to be able to get anywhere (hope that makes sense!)

I don't know if I can add anything to what's already been said. I, personally, have trouble distinguishing art from entertainment, mainly because I don't see a huge amount of distinction in the process that the performer/artist has to go through.

Warning: rambling ahead

I sometimes (in my more cynical moments) think there's a tendency to label anything that's visually slick, symmetrical, 'traditional' in presentations, done by conventionally attractive people and enjoyed by the majority of people 'entertainment'. Anything that is 'difficult' or requires a lifetime in higher education to understand, occurs in small, specialist venues, only enjoyed by a minority, 'art'. So, the end-product (whether art or entertainment) is a combination of the artist's intention, reception by an audience and the context in which it is presented. I think it is the latter two that tend to have most influence over whether something is labelled 'art' or not. And I think the key to whether something is labelled 'entertainment' or not is how popular it is (more popular=more entertainment-like). And somehow these distinctions have filtered into society generally and in an unspoken way, and it's not always easy to articulate your discomfort with the distinction...

Anyway - back to bellydance/Arabic dance/Middle Eastern dance. Yes...it is a form of cultural entertainment. But that doesn't exclude it from being art. Flamenco and Bharata Natyam are forms of cultural entertainment that are now considered 'art' in the UK dance world. I think this is because a) flamenco is European, b) Bharata Natyam is a codified dance. Middle Eastern dance is neither. I think the people at ACE are still overly influenced by Orientalist views of what dance in the Middle East might be. I also think they aren't impressed by the fact that the majority of practitioners appear not to be Middle Eastern in origin. I have had some contact with ACE, and I can tell you, they pretty much consider this dance to be ENTERTAINMENT. One of the other things that I think spooks the powers that be about our dance is that is most often presented 'up close' - this is threatening to people who prefer their art 'out there' on a stage. (Must go and take me anti-cynicism pill after this post)

Part of me wants to ask - why should we justify what we are doing as art? Why should we even be in that position - let's just reject the question and get on with doing what we do. On the other hand, sometimes it would be great to be able to make that justification...so here's some more thoughts about how we might be able to link Middle Eastern dance to art:

- Some forms / developments / variations of Middle Eastern dance carry no narrative, but are abstract explorations of pattern, shape and movement. Like those forms of Islamic art/architecture that use geometric patterns (think ceiling of Alhambra)

- Some forms / developments / variations of Middle Eastern dance do carry narrative (when a dancer captures and presents the emotional content of a song through their dance) - this is what a lot of established art forms, e.g., ballet, novels, films, also do.

- Wearable art - many dancers also become a canvas for their own or others, wearable art, whilst dancing (ok, tenuous I know)

- Improvised dance performances (e.g., in restaurants) are SITE SPECIFIC ART - the dancer responds to the musicians/music, the nature and makeup of the audience, the audience's understanding of the material presented, the physical layout of the venue, within their dance vocabulary and at that particular time and place.

I'm sure there's more, but I'm running out of steam, hope that helped

deelybopper

We were posting at the same time!

So true - especially with regard to ACE.

Unless it's Damian Hirst's diamond encrusted skull of course On the other hand, anything that sparkles against a dancer's body is of course the realm of entertainment. Clearly not art.

And, yes, I think it's very much a class issue (looks for revolutionary smiley )

Suheir

I'm possibly in a minority in believing that *all* entertainment is art. Even the trashiest TV programme requires set designers, wardrobe, director. Circus clowns design their own make-up and costumes. The blandest pop music still requires a creator, even if that creator was a computer program!

What is art? The messy blobs a two-year-old makes with paint are art. The way you arrange your dinner on the plate is art. Many craftspeople are determined that the functional objects they produce are also aesthetically pleasing. The arrangement of the web page you're looking at is art!

Caroline_afifi

My sentiments exactly.

Hi DeelyBopper!

Your post was great and I can see you have are experiencing the same mental merry-go-round as me!
The reason for battling this issue for me is to have an aspect of belly dance which is not just commercially driven. Yes we still buy tickets for shows etc. but to produce quality like any other art we need financial support. I have til now funded everything out of my pocket for the love of it. I only applied for ACE once as an individual to be told not enough Middle Eastern people were in it. it was a 60/40 ratio.

As the Arab Arts Festival we get funding for all aspects of the programme.
It is a bit like the football debate sport or Business? the supporters view it as a sport but it is definately organised as a business.
The bellydance dollar/pound must be worth Billions worldwide and this was going to be one of my projects to investigate although it actually seems impossible.

I believe art should not be exclusive but you need a healthy disposable income to be able to afford lessons, tickets,training, festivals, costumes, music etc etc.

Validating the dance as an art should give us financial help to make it more accessible and make arts for all.

I saw a lovely talented little dancer last week. I was told her mum was not able to afford for her to go to workshops or buy nice costumes. I can understand that but it is sad.