Tarik Sultan

I'm in total agreement with everything you just said. I love good dance, but I feel that sometimes things like conversations, often go off on such large tangents the end product no longer resembles or has any relation to the original.

As Aisha has pointed out in regards to Raks, it is evolving all on its own. Just a carefull observation of footage from the 40's to the present shows this.

Jeffrey I do not doubt for a second that the Rom originated in India. I'm in total agreement with you there. what I do not agree with is the theory that they had any significant influence either on Raks Sharki or any of the social dances that it is based on. I don't deny that there are Asiatics influences in the dance, just not Indian and not by way of the Rom. I would also like to know why some people have such a hard time acknowledging the fact that a large part of the movement vocabulary is in fact African, especially when the evidence is practically staring us in the face?

By the way Aziyade, yes I have seen all those sources. I've also seen Lachto Drom. Another good research source is Magda Salah's film Egypt Dances, which can be viewed at the Lincolin Center Dance Research Library in the City. Artemis Murat has very good footage of Turkish Rom Dance. If she's ever in your area and showing her footage you should go. I myself had the opportunity to see Rom dance at a few weddings in Istanbul, great stuff.

About what you said regarding the term Ghawazee, it's true that the term is not indicative of ethnicity. It has a very insulting connotation actually. When I interviewed Khiriya Mazin she made it known she did not like to be referred to by this name. She said that the propper name for her people was Nawar. Edwina Nearing has done the best research on them to date. She even lived with them for quite a while.

Jeffrey

Aisha and Tarik,
It is obvious that it is you that are not bellydancers. Now don't take offence at that statement because none is intended. The very term "bellydance" was created by western society as a label for a dance form that later evolved and was influenced by what was seen in the Middle-East. First the French term: Danse du ventre' and then the American Term: Bellydance. You do Raqs Skarki, okay?
You cannot have it both ways. If you want to seperate yourselves from what you consider abhorant about most "Cabaret style" bellydance, why do you insist upon using the very term created to describe such? I am not certain why you insist on pointing your finger at others and stating that what they are doing is NOT bellydance, and then you have a vague or discipled explanation based on personal observation.
You are probably a wonderful dancers, but a bit arrogant when you take a superior tone and question other's experiences. It's entirely possible that there are many on this board that know a great deal more than you but choose not to jump into the discussion. Aisha and Tarik, I don't know if you realize it or not, but your tone and continued snide remarks are alienating a lot of very decent people that love dance. Why? Is it more important for you to win an argument than to be right? Taking an attitude that what you are doing is true and high and what others are doing is crass and vulgar, but if they choose to do it they have every right, but it's not "pure" bellydance. That's not being right! Are these the attitudes and words of a truly sensitive and artistic being? Mull that over a bit and try to think a bit more respectfully of your fellow artists, the bellydancers.

Tarik Sultan

I don't think you really read what I or A'sha had to say did you? If you did, there is no way that you could come to the conclusion that I or her am putting down any other dance styles. There is no argument to win here. You are missing the point altogether. It's not which style is better than the other, but what is the connection to Egypt and how relavant is that connection. What I said in a nutshell, is that it depends on the style you dance, which is why we need a more specific term than belly dance. It lumps a whole bunch of things together that should not be. No onje said that the other styles were bad.

Good American style is great and valid, as well as Tribal and Gothic. As I said repeatedly I love good dance. My position has always been truth in advertising. I happen to love Tribal when its done well, but it is not Middle Eastern dance and they don't claim that it is either. Gothic Dance is not Middle Eastern, so what? All I'm saying, is that the show should be advertised for what it is. If the dances are in fact not Middle Eastern, don't advertise it as such call it what it is, but in order to do that, we need to be clear what we are talking about when we say Belly Dance.

this is one reason why I prefere to use the culturally correct term for what I do. It is not Tribal, or Gothic or Fusion. It is Raks Sharki. I want people to know exactly what they are going to get if they come to my class or show. Keep in mind that there are new people coming to this all the time. some of them went looking for a belly dance class and found tribal, so for them that's what belly dance is, some find Gothic and for them that's what it is, others find fusion and some find traditional Raks Sharki. These new commers are often times totally unaware of all the different styles out there and when they go to another calss are often confused and disoriented by what they find. I've had people come to my class who were studying with a fusion teacher and they had no idea why I was playing Arabic music, or what this had to do with the Middle East, they couldn't relate. Quite often people who find themselves in this situation leave feeling very frustrated because they can't relate to what the teacher is doing. This is only one reason why I think we really need clarification.

There are many American style, Fusion, Tribal and Gothic dancers who I would pay money to see any time. They are really good and in my opinion, have star quality. However, that doesn't negate the fact that the same can't be said about everyone. IF I see some girl who took two dance classes, has no control over her body, has no identifiable movement vocabulary and is just all around not talented am I supposed to shower her with roses??!! I don't think so!

Maybe where you live all the people who perform are well trained professionals, but here in the city, I'm seeing an alarming arry of young girls who have no training in any dance style, who really think that just because they have some approximation of a costume they are dancers. The fact that they get hired because they're young, pretty and willing to dance for next to nothing doesn't help matters either. I'm not saying nor have I ever, that unless you are doing authentic Egyptian Raks, this is the type of dancer you are. However, the fact remains that this term belly dance is confusing because no one can come to a consensus as to what it is and what it isn't. Like I said, there are people who think the only thing that you need inorder to be a belly dancer is a costume, technique training etc be damned. There is nothing wrong with having standards. Every dance form does. Some people have the talent to meet them and others do not.

Dance is an inclusive activity. One of the reasons I love Egyptian Baladi is because in the social context it is very accepting. No one judges you according to how well you dance or don't dance, but whether or not you are having fun and sharing the love with those around you. Every one should dance, however, this does not mean that everyone belongs on stage in a professional venue.

I have never put anyone down. And if you ask anyone who has taken a class from me, they will tell you that I am one of the most accepting, encouraing, patient teachers that you will ever meet. Do all my student perform traditional Raks, NO THEY DON'T. Some do American style, some do Gothic and some even do Fusion. One of my dearest students is a Lady named Marcella. She is a wonderful dancer but in all the years I've known her, she's never done a traditional solo dance. Her music is never Egyptian or Arabic, in fact she's found of Santana and Madonna, (Youtube clip on the way, just gimme a day or so). In fact, I encourage her to be true to her spirit. Raks Sharki is not her style, therefore, what happens in Egypt is not relavant to her, why should it be? I on the other hand am a practitioner of Egyptian style, so for me it is very relavent.

For the record, once again, I do not call what I do Belly Dance, I use the linguistic term that comes from the culture. I'm just being honest. If you come to my class or show what I will be teaching and performing is Egyptian stlye Raks Sharki, or Raks Baladi unless otherwise stated. All I'm saying is that as a dance community, we should be clear about what we are talking about.

Once again, the question was how relavant is Egypt to belly dance? My reply is that for those of us who are doing the ethnic dance which comes out of Egypt called Raks Sharki, it is very relavent and essential. For those who are doing other dance forms which are not rooted in the culture, obviously the answer is no. Did I say that they were wrong? Where ever did you get the opinion that I think Tribal, or Gothic vulgar? By the way, you still haven't given me a definition of what you think belly dance is.

Aniseteph

Please listen to Tarik, guys!

I turn my back and suddenly loads more posts appear!

But I think the bottom line of what Tarik says is right - use the original language to describe the specific form, not a word which has come to describe a much bigger scene in the West. The big arguments on this forum are when the term bellydance is used specifically and exclusively to refer to what Tarik describes as Raks, thereby causing upset and offence to dancers not pursuing that form who are being told they are not bellydancers. I don't think Tarik is saying anyone is not a bellydancer (unless they are trying to be pro and are crap, right? - fair enough), he just wants styles to be identified to avoid confusion. If you see something described as just "Bellydance", well to mangle a maxim - let the viewer beware! (They should probably have written that on the flap of Sol's tent)

Sorry, I really don't get the point about Sol Bloom. I thought he introduced the TERM bellydance, in which case you can't say "that wasn't bellydance he brought over". Because until Sol, or whoever named it, there wasn't any bellydance. There may have been danse du ventre and all manner of authentic ME dances, but not "bellydance". (There certainly was danse du ventre - my reference a few posts down!).
The fusionists aren't adding roller skates to Raks Sharghi and still calling it Raks Sharghi (well if they are they are wrong and deserve to be laughed off the stage by ME audiences. And anyone else by the sound of it) - they are adding them to bellydance. It's a different animal, maybe distantly related. It's Western, corrupted, culturally-impure-and-full-of-incongruities bellydance that comes from the burlesque house and Sol's tent, danse du ventre and the orientalists, all the way to tribal, gothic, AmCab and all the trimmings.
:eek: - WHERE did that come from - did anyone here actually say that? That bellydance is developing in the West says NOTHING about what the ME is doing with its own art forms. Like I said, different animal.

Got to go, I think I'm getting RSI!
A xx

Gabi

That's the stuff the makes people go bonkers innit . The ME can do whatever it wants, no one is going to remove anything from them. The moves are not private domain - if people choose to use them in different ways - more's the better

outta here before I feel like ground hog day meself

Irene

Hi, Tarik!
I agree with almost all that you say (as I often do, I am a fan of your posts, here and on the MED list). Only one thing. India did not "go outwards" to influence, but so many people went there to conquer it and they did get influenced by it. Plus there is the question of the Roma, who are now quite definitely thought to have originated from Rajasthan, in North-Western India. I've seen Gypsy dances in the desert of Rajasthan, and they definitely have a flavour very akin to Oriental dance - although to an untrained eye it doesn't have anything to do. Actually, after their dance which we watched all around a camp fire, they got us to dance as well - good for us, because we were freezing. The local people were amazed when my daughter and I got up and danced what they referred to as "their dance".

One trick that got lots of attention was the two rings. The lady had two rings made out of coins. So she put them on the floor, coin face down, ring face up. While dancing she did an extra low bridge backward bend, she opened her eyes widely and picked up the rings with the muscles around the eyes. So when she got up again, she had two gold coins in place of the eyes. OK, this is circus, not dancing, but it WAS spectacular!!!

What I'm saying is that when the Roma migrated elsewhere, they most certainly brought some Indian influence everywhere. It seems that they did not go from Egypt to Spain as previously thought, but they did go to Egypt, and they did go to Spain, and Turkey, and Greece, and everywhere else as well, so...

Irene

Sorry everyone!
I had jumped a page or two and hadn't seen all the detailed postings to this thread before I posted my reply, which I now see to be more or less useless, as someone else had said more or less the same things.

I'm not sure Roma dancing and Asia Minor influences (through Turkish occupation of Egypt for so many centuries) did not influence Raqs Sharqi at all. Influences are such fluid things, aren't they?

Hip movements may be African, but when I see African dances today I see lots of foot stomping and very broad, angular, jerky movements, totally different in style and feeling to Raqs Sharki, as different as Arabic music is different and much more subtle than African music. (Folk music and dances of the Arabic world are not as subtle, of course, so there the difference is not as obvious, and you may say that our dance originated from folk dances, but still...)
I would say that the whole conception, philosophy of African dances is completely different. Although they have a great variety of rhythms, sometimes complicated, the movements look very crude and primitive - also very joyful, earthy, energetic and releasing, but not my cup of tea, if I must be frank.
I'm not speaking now as an expert of African dance, because I'm far from it, and you may refute me with many technical details, but I'm just saying what I see, hear and feel as an audience member: we have a very good African dancer and djembe drummer in our school, Seraphin Zekoua, and I've seen him perform very often (he's from Ivory coast and used to live in Burkina Faso, but performs dances from all over).

Anyway. Things do travel. Think of fairy tales, same tale in India, in Russia and in Germany, how the heck did it go from here to there?
Also, sometimes similar things or ideas or movements or..., may be born in different places spontaneously, with no contact between the cultures. This is also possible, especially with movements that are natural to the human body. The Hawaiians do hip circles too, and it doesn't mean they took it from the Middle East or viceversa (or maybe they did - how knows? Through the Vikings maybe, who crossed the Bering strait into America? LOL!!!).
And the "birthing ritual" origin may be a myth, a fantasy, but belly rolls and flutters etc... are more or less what I've been forced by Mother Nature to do when I wanted to get those two children out.

To reply to Jeoffrey who was confused by Tarik's wording and the fact that the dance was there before 1927:
The original style was there from some centuries, and was already influenced by other cultures in the 18th and 19th century when the first Europeans spoke and wrote about it, but was more "original". In the 20th century, from Badia Masabni onwards the Western influences were prominent (Ballet, Latin, ballroom etc...), and that's what many people call "Modern Raqs Sharki", and is the dance we study and perform today as "Egyptian". It's a very successful fusion, one which was somehow crystallized into a "classical" status. (If this fusion is fused more than that, then it becomes too much of a fusion for my taste) Probably, if we saw today what was done before, we would think it is not so interesting, so varied or so polished as a show. Or maybe not: who knows? After all, the Middle Eastern women in the houses go on dancing all this time that Westerners are studying their dance form. Are they immune to outside influences? I don't believe so. They also see films, TV etc, and they may have picked up things to incorporate them into the movement vocabulary they already use. A dancer friend, married to an Egyptian, who witnessed those women's parties told me that the technique of some of these ladies is equal to the great dancers we see on stage. (And also, remember Morocco's telling she learned so many moves from the Arab grannies who came to the Greek restaurant she danced in?)

Bottom line: as you all know and have written before, the subject of origins and influences is too complicated to pinpoint, and that's why it's safer to be extra cautious when discussing origins and influences. And no need to be quarrelling about it either.

Aisha Azar

Dear Aniseteph,
Since I do not believe that Sol Bloom coined the term "Belly dance" here in America, I guess that would make a difference in our points of view. (BTW, can you give me info on where you have read or heard that Sol
Bloom is responsbile for calling the dance "belly dance", because I have not found any valid referencves to this.) I have heard for many years that the term was coined first by the French soldiers in North Africa and then picked up later by the Americans and translated from Danse du Ventre to belly dance. (Wish my grandfather were still alive... maybe he could tell me more about this. He gave me tons of good into on the Ouled Nail,who he saw live in both public and private performances.) I believe the term was coined in Egypt by soldiers who were watching women perform Raqs Sharghi and that it MEANS raqs el sharghi in English. For myself, I like and use the term "belly dance" when talking with the average American about the dance... and they know what I am talking about. If I say Raqs el sharghi, they are clueless. They already have a name that they calll the dance and can then be educated to its Arabic translation. Tarik and I do differ in that I think "belly dance" does specifically mean Raqs Sharghi and Oriental Tanzi.

In referring to the dancers at the Chicago World's Fair in 1893, Carlton wrote, "The performers included Egyptian style Ghawazi, Algerian Ouled Nail and handkercheif dancers, and a Turkish style Cengi", (Looking For Little Egypt, 1994, p xi)
Her book explains how the "legend" ( her word, not mine) that there was belly dancing at World's Fair seems to be off base, and she has good research to back her up. She brings into question Little Egypt, but the book goes deeper than that.

RE the fusion issue: I have seen some stuff that is about as ridiculous as belly dance on roller skates, all in the name of "belly dance". I have also seen some fabulous fusion. Much of it makes no sense in context of belly dance, but if you call it something else, it is often amazing and wonderful dance. The incredible Rachel Brice is a case in point.

I made my statement about the west and innovation because there is often the implication that the"dance is dying out in Egypt", and they do not innovate, or some similar statement. This is part of Dipali's query.


Der Jeffrey,
Please stay to the point of the debate and stop calling attention
to your perceptions of our personalities and character flaws. Tarik is loved and deeply respected in the international dance community.
He knows his stuff inside and out and he is a gentleman to boot. Could we please make this a discussion about the dance and not about how you think we are as people? If we are humble, arrogant, stupid, smart, etc, it has nothing to do with the conversation at hand.

Dear Tarik,
Thanks for understanding my underlying concerns and my point,

Regards to all,
A'isha

Yasmine Bint Al Nubia

Hello Everybody, I'm surprised this topic hasn't been moved to the "Sauna" yet I f I remember correctly the topic was in regards to the relevance of Egypt to modern bellydance. It seemed as it was a question posed to the members of the forum. So I've been reading alot of the answers and have learned a great deal.
My answer to the original question is as a modern dancer(born in the second half of this century), Egypt has a lot of relevance to me even though I specialize in American Cabaret style. However, I love to watch Egyptian folkloric style as it has a lot of "soul". Egypt's relevance for me is strengthed by the Nubian culture which resides within the borders of Egypt proper. Tarik I know why people do not acknowledge the African connection because many people forget(or never learned) that Egypt is an African country. When most people think of Africa, images of wild animals and primitive people come to mind. Egypt, Morocco,Libya,Tunisia,Algeria are considered the "Mahgreb". These countries are located on the African continent, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Iran(Persia),Saudi Arabia are located on the Asian continent and are considered the "Levant".
So here's a rhetorical question? If Tarik explains that what we know as bellydance,Raks Sharki, Raks Baladi, Oryntal Tansi, has influence from African and Central Asian sources why do we continue to refute that claim?
I'm educated enough to perform my own reseach into geography and history to determine if someone is blowing smoke up my hindparts. Aisha's and Tarik's posts follow a logical path,even though they start at different place ,they arrive at the same destination.
I'm part of the African Diaspora, and when I began to learn this dance, I found A LOT of the movements very similar to the social dancing I did growing up. But it was important to me to look at the sources of origin to understand the meaning of the dance and the music. So back to Dipali's original question, Egypt contines to have relevance to me.
Yasmine

Aniseteph

A'isha you asked about where I got the Sol Bloom/ belly dance connection. I bow to your greater knowledge, it is just what I've picked up reading and on-line, so it's probably b*ll!@s. However it has no relevance whatsoever. Any differences in our points of view are not down to that, but purely semantic relating to the meaning of the word bellydance. I would not presume to argue with you about the meaning of the specific dance that you call bellydance and that Tarik identifies as Raks.

It might have then, but that was a long time ago. Nowadays lots of people believe it means other things too. Who's right? "Gay" to my grandmother meant being happy and carefree - words and meanings and shades of meaning change. Even gay does not mean exactly what it did 5 years ago. If my grandmother sticks to the "happy" meaning she is not going to communicate as effectively as she might :o

Is it just me or am I being trolled here? I'm such a muppet.
Regards
A xxx

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."
Lewis Carroll, Through the Looking-Glass