Jeffrey

I think we've found an appropriate word here. This is what the Middle Eastern traditionalists should call the dance that they are doing, and not "bellydance" which is a western (specifically American English word and style). BTW they do a lot of bellydance in the Middle-East now, it's a lot more popular than "Raqs Sharki".
As to the India connection: The Rom are a people that originated in India and migrated all over the world and brought with them much of their original culture as well as adapting aspects of other cultures into their dance. (Don't call them gypsies though unless you want a severe tongue lashing or worse).
The "mystique" of what we call "bellydance" was partly influenced by the nomadic Rom and the dancing that they did. So in an indirect way there was a connection.
Also, pardon me for being a "Knitpicker" but where on earth did you get the idea that India was isolated from Western European culture? Much of the "silk route" originated there. Alexander even settled there for a while and there are people in India today that can draw their lineage back to the ancient Greeks. Certainly there was an enormous amount of contact with India many centuries before there was ever a thing called "bellydance". If you are to believe the history books and documentation of the time Christopher Columbus was supposedly searching for a more convenient route for trade with India when he landed in the Carribean. There were quite a number of European traders that dealt with India going back into the European Renaissance. So there was no isolation.
There is no agreement among Egyptians as to what is "traditional" bellydance and what is not. They will sometimes refer to something that is new and innovative as "Cairo Disco" as an insult and often that is based on their peception of the status of the performers.
I find this line of discussion fruitless because it is based on personal perceptions and NOT hard facts. To say something is or isn't "traditional" bellydance just because you don't "feel" it or "you know it when you see it" has no place in an intelligent conversation. It's like arguing over who's religion is better or who's dad is stronger. It's far too subjective and relies to much on the "eye of the beholder". Rather than answering an honest question of what makes something traditional with "show me how you think this is",if you are THAT knowledgable, please give some substantial evidence and background to support what you are saying. Otherwise you are simply dismissing an honest question with an "opinion" that is stated as if it is fact.
In the academic world, for something to be accepted as "period" or "traditional" it must be supported by no less than three (3) primary sources. That is an international standard, not just a Western European one.
(Sorry, that's the art history professor in me speaking now).
Since much of what has been said about "traditional" bellydance seems to come from oral traditions (which I find strange since the semetics are a highly literate people), the evidence without three primary sources, needs to be overwhelming before you can even begin to give attribution much less prove.
Now......I am a fairly learned and studied individual, and I am perfectly willing to admit when I am proven wrong (to do otherwise is to be an ignoramous).
Please, rather than putting the burden of proof on the person asking the honest question, show with some documentation, the assertions made about what and where bellydance came from and what it is. Otherwise, people are just going to keep shooting "spitballs" at each other.

Aisha Azar

Dear Jeffrey,
I am in disagreement with those who claim there is "traditional" and "modern" belly dancem so that is best left between Tarik and you. There is modern belly dance only, in that the dance is about 100 or so years old. There is a lot of evidence to show that the dance started in the urban areas of Egypt, Turkey and Lebanon. ( Though Nadia Gamal used to like to say that the Phoenicians invented it!) Belly dance was as a result of a movement from agrarian setting to more people moving into the cities and developing more sophistocated ways of doing their entire lives( not just their dancing). The dance was and is called Raqs el Sharghi ( or in Egypt, the gh disappears and is nearly soundless colloquially), by Arabs and called Oriental Tanzi by Turks. Europeans and westerners who saw the dance in its native
environment called it Danse du ventre ( dance of the abdomen) or "Belly Dance". (Jodette Silhi says this haopened during World War II, and this might make sense, since Masabni opened her club in 1927.) They were referring to Raqs Sharghi specifically and in the Amerian mind, Orientalist fantasy or no, they are still doing so..
Badia Masabni is given credit in Egypt for developing the dance, though she is just one of the people who brought it to the stage. There is a lot of evidence to prove this. There is no great mystery as to how and when the dance developed. There are many sources, but one I can lay my hands on right now is:

Antar. E. (1971, Sept/Oct) "La Danse Du Ventre" Aramco World Magazine, pp. 4-10.
( My citational skills are a little rusty so forgive any cross method citing!)

There is some hazy stuff that is probably not known as fact and then, it is stated, "There is no doubt that the fountainhead of belly dancing in this century was the 'Casino Opera' in Cairo, right across the street from the ornate Egypt State Opera House. Casino Opera was founded in 1927 by Badia Masabni, a gifted and enterprising young woman of Lebanese parentage who was then married to Egypt's leading playwright".

I am sure that with a little rooting around in my huge 32 year old pile of info, I could find more, but I am also sure Tarik will have great info for you. Neither of us is making stuff up. We are both very well researched. This is not us givng "personal perceptions". We have a lot of "hard facts" to back up our statements, though many people prefer not to believe that.

Re the India and Rom connection that you mentioned: I would like to see some hard facts on that data. There is the occasional claim by the Ghawazi that they are Gypsies, but they also claim to be related to the Persian, Barmicide, and also occasionally to Bedouin tribes, so there is no actual way to trace their statements.When dancers were still dancing in the sreets, they were not even performing belly dance, but forerunners of this dance, from which some concepts were taken in order to develop the new form. It is clear that the felaheen moved ( or sometimes were moved) into the cities in Egypt to work and brought their dances with them and developed new forms of dance as they grew into their new surrpundings. The fact that the dancers may have been "influenced" by outsiders does not mean it is not inherently Egyptian, because what developed was developed by the Egyptian soul and mind and heart. This is of course outside the realm of "hard facts", but in reality that makes dance history no different than any other kind of history. Someplace in here, I have a book I could reference for that.

Regards,
A'isha

Aziyade

It's nice to see Africa getting some "mad props" for contributing to the dance. 'Cause I have to say, the more North and West African dance I see (of all varieties) the more I see a connection to Raqs Beledi (or the "traditional" form, whatever we're calling it.)

I think sometimes there's a tendency to say "because culture A knew of the existence of culture B and traded with them, culture A significantly influenced the folk art or folk practice of culture B." I see this a lot in SCA "scholarship."

If I remember correctly, the Phoenicians did send expeditions to northwest Africa. But that doesn't necessarily mean that the Phoenician music and culture supplanted that of the locals -- or even substantially INFLUENCED it!

Aniseteph

Are these shows being described as bellydance or raks sharghi? If they are being described as bellydance then there's the problem - you are expecting bellydance(=raks), and getting bellydance(=bellydance-western-style, in all it's weird and wonderful incarnations). No wonder some of it makes you go :eek: . Someone else might be expecting strippers and think how upsetting to HIS male menopause that is....

What we Westerners started with probably wasn't that authentic (could cite Morocco on this but dunno if she is considered an authoritative source), and 100+ years down the line it has evolved into all sorts of styles under the same word. Bellydance. Yes, some people are trying to do authentic "original" raks sharghi, in which case they should be culturally aware and mindful of weird props and inappropriate music. But many aren't trying to do that, and for these people Egypt is not that relevant because the connections are distant; they aren't interested in the ME, they are into eg tribal, AmCab, or Gothic style.

IMO it is pointless trying to get all the genres to relinquish the use of the word bellydance and find a "better" word to describe what they do. You might as well tell the Gothic bellydancers that they are not being gothic because they are not interested in an East Germanic tribe from the 2nd century.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gothic_...ambiguation%29 The word gothic has evolved. So has the word bellydance.

Hey, how's this for scholarly references, and off my own bookshelf too (I'm feeling SO educated!!!). If that isn't the very shimmy I'm practising every day (progress: infinitesimal )...
1880 - that's nearly 130 years of Western influence. Nana rocks.

(Chants to self in playground style: I found a reference, I found a reference....)

Tarik Sultan

Dear Jeffrey:

This is long, in comparison to my usual short and to the point posts, (OH DON'T YOU ALL LOOK AT ME SO SURPRISED), but please do me the courtesy of reading my reply to the points you raised.

It seems that you have misunderstood or misinterpreted the points I raised in my posts. In response to Dipalis question whether or Not Egypt is still relevant to what many people call belly dance, my response was yes it is. However, since there are so many variants that are not connected to the native cultures of the Middle East, that point needed to be stated and clarified.

I find your statement that there is more belly dance than Raks Sharki in the Middle East interesting. Can you please clarify what you are calling belly dance? I've been traveling to the Middle East, in particular Egypt since 1988 and although I am not fluent in Arabic, I speak and read enough to know that the dance is never called belly dance, but Raks Sharki. If we agree that this dance is native to the Middle East, then I don’t think it’s a far stretch to say that in Arabic speaking countries, it is called Raks Sharki. This is not an opinion it is a fact. We in the west are the ones that call it belly dance. All I'm saying is that I think that we should call the traditional performance art form what it is called in its native language. In my opinion, it would help to clarify the confusion when we are discussing the dance. If I say I'm talking about Raks, then that means I am addressing the traditional performance art that is based on one of the social dance of the Middle East, in particular Egypt. Its not Gothic style, its not Tribal and its not fusion it is what it is and it looks something like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvCmUyU6Gc8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34hchkLCAVs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6autbeh_tUk

Read the descriptions of the clips, it gives the background information.

Regarding my statements about India. My comments was not meant to be a lesson on the history of the Indian subcontinent, you've taken it out of context. I never said anything about India being isolated from Western Europe. My point was that it never conquered the other Asian cultures to its north and west. It is historical fact that can be proven from their own history, or and J.R High School text book, or History channel documentary, that Northern India was repeatedly invaded by the cultures to its north and west. First the Aryans, then as you pointed out Alexander, followed by the Persians Afghans and Mongols. This is why the languages, cuisine and music and arts of Northern India are different from those of Southern India, it’s just a fact. Oh and there's another thing, India is a Sub-Continent, it was never a unified nation and still isn't to this day. Many regional languages, many regional cultural practices, many regional religious traditions. So if you're talking about Indian influences, can you tell me specifically which cultural region of India did the influencing of Raks sharki in Egypt?

The point is that the often touted claim that the dance came in part or in whole from India. Where is the scholarship to prove this? Can you give ME three primary documents to support this claim?

Yes it is true that the Roma did migrate into the Middle East, as they did in Anatolia and Europe, however, I see very little evidence that they influenced the dance. If we look at the dances of the Roma in Rajasthan where they originated, do we see a similarity in movement vocabulary with Egyptian dance? No. As a matter of fact can we see any similarity between Ghawazee dance in Egypt, Rom dance in Turkey, (been there and seen that too), Rom dance in Russia and Eastern Europe and Spain? They all look different and have different movement vocabularies, yet I'm supposed to believe they had an influence when on the movement vocabulary when all the dance styles they practice are so radically different from each other?

If I look at Uzbek and Persian dances, can I see a similarity to the hand and arm movements in Arabic dance? Yes I can, in fact they are identical. When you consider that Egypt, Anatolia and the Levant were once a part of the Persian Empire, this is not surprising. Do I however, see any of the same similarities between Arabic, specifically Egyptian dances and Indian dances, no I don't. As Aziyade also mentioned, there is an observable similarity to a lot of the movements of Raks to those done across Africa as well as those done in the African Diaspora. Its just another of those easily observable facts. From Central Africa to West Africa to East Africa, the twisting, shaking, lifting, dropping, spiraling of the hips can be seen. Now maybe its just me, but if I see that all over Africa people use their hips when they dance, and there’s a country located in the North Eastern section of THAT VERY SAME CONTINENT, and in that country the people move their hips in many of the same ways common sense would dictate that just maaaybe all that hip shaking originated on the very same continent that that country is a part of and not a subcontinent where hip shaking doesn't play a major role in the dance traditions. By the way I am of North East Indian descent so there really is strong motivation for me to give India credit, but it just doesn't add up.

FOR THE RECORD:
I do not, nor have I ever said that the nontraditional forms that were inspired by Raks Sharki are wrong. I never said that one is better than the other. I did say, which is true, that "I" am a practitioner of the traditional dance forms. That is what I love and what I teach. I came to the dance first by way of the music and nothing else scratches my itch like it. If anyone wants to do fusion, or Tribal or Gothic, fine. Just be honest about what you are doing and don't pass it off for being Middle Eastern Dance. I don't want to spend money on a ticket to see a Middle Eastern dance show to listen to Solace and watch swishing fabric all night. If on the other hand the show is advertised as Tribal, Gothic, or fusion, then I can decide whether or not I want to see a show with some good dance in those styles.

IN REGARDS TO MY STATEMENT ABOUT A LOT OF WEIRD $%#&!

I stand by it. Bad dance just sucks period! To call something Middle Eastern Dance, or worse yet to claim to be doing a specific folk dance when you have no knowledge of that culture, its music, movement vocabulary is just wrong. Calling something Middle Eastern Dance just because you wear a two-piece costume does not make it so.

And for the record, the differences between American style and traditional Raks are also observable. Some things you never see in Egyptian Raks, snakes, a veil work section, sword dancing, candles, wings, trays. In fact there is not an emphasis on props, but musical/emotional interpretation and personality. When Egyptians or Arabs in general see these things, (props), they know, this is American style.

In conclusion: While the "Semites" are historically a very literate people mundane topics such as dance were never deemed worthy of serious attention or discussion. And since dance ethnology is a relatively new subject, there is not a wealth of written documentation of the dances history available beyond what was created in this century and reported in their arts periodicals.

Tarik Sultan

Yes and yes. That is my point exactly. Al that I and others such as Aisha are asking for is truth in advertising. That way, we can determine for ourselves if we want to see a particular show or not. None of us have ever said the other dance forms have no right to exist.

Tarik

Jeffrey

Greetings,
Here is just one source that is on-line that makes mention of the India connection to the Rom. I have several books on the subject and will gladly quote from them:
http://www.mtsu.edu/~baustin/gypsies.html
I find it interesting that you attribute "Modern Bellydance" to something that originated in Cairo in the 1920's when what most people point to is the 1890's Worlds Fair in Chicago and the very early black and white silent films of Thomas Edison and others allegedly of "Little Egypt" but who knows what the actual dancer's name was. These both pre-dated 1927 by a bit. Also the paintings and facination with the subject by the 19th Century French and English academic painters as well as some by Eugene Delacroix dating back to the first half of the 19th century.
Perhaps what you really meant to say is the specific type of dance that "you" call bellydance originated in 1927 in Cairo. For that you will get no argument from me because what I'm desperately trying to find out is what exactly you call bellydance. It seems to be very different than what the rest of the world calls it.
The Rom or Roma are slightly less mysterious than the "Ghawazi" as there is less conclusive evidence as to their origins. I read a thesis years ago written by a History PhD candidate from Princeton that stated that the
people that we think of as the "Ghawazi" were actually Egyptian courtezans that adapted a man's coat to be provocative and hence we have the "Ghawazi coat" (Yikes)! He backed up his staements with a lot of research and it raised quite a lot of eyebrows. I have no idea whether or not that has even a element of truth to it, but it highlights the problem of ascribing attributions and establishing historic precedence. If you read his thesis, he made an excellent case.
If bellydance is a viable artform (and I certainly think that it is) it must evolve and splinter into different variations, otherwise it is nothing more than an archaic "period" curiousity. If there is no difference and only "true bellydance" then it must be subjugated to the role of of a scholarly recitation of only known and given moves to known and given music played on only those instruments that were used in period. ( that doesn't sound like art to me, more like something on the History Channel). Even Tradition by its very nature, evolves. Even in the strict religions tradition evolves. A few hundred years ago in Kosher law poultry was considered dairy, that changed. In the strictest understanding of Islamic law, a man watching a woman dance, or for that matter just looking at an even partially uncovered woman that was not his wife was a sin. That has become relaxed or there wouldn't be any bellydancing in Islamic countries. Traditions evolve.
What is "accurate" and authentic? Oil painting was created by a Flemish artist named Jan Van Eyck in the early 15th century. The idea was taken by a Sicilian artist named Antonello da Messina who opened up a studio in Venice and had among his students Giovanni Bellini who taught Giorgione and Titian. The techniques and uses of "the authentic" medium were drastically changed and varied. Different styles evolved that we refer to as "The Flemish", The Venetian" and "The Tuscan", all different all varied. Is the ONLY authentic and accurate practitioner of oil painting Jan Van Eyck? If so, what would you call Titian, Leonardo, Raphael, Rembrandt, Rubens, Goya, Monet, Van Gogh? Are they not oil painters also?
I'm afraid that your logic doesn't hold water. It may work within your own mind, but it can't be applied to the rest of the world. I'm sorry.
Cordially,
-Jeffrey

Tarik Sultan

Dear A'isha:

I know that you do, as is evident from your website and your many posts over the years. And I also realize that quite often you are misunderstood for saying things that rub people the wrong way, even though they are true. I too occasionally find myself in the same situation. To all those who maight at times take exception to the things we say, please read our posts carefully. You will see that we believe there is room for everyone, but that we do ask for truth in advertising, nothing more, nothing less.

There is a lot of fantasy and outright misunderstanding and in some cases misrepresentations. So if those of us with the on site experience and in culture knowledge trys to set the record straight, don't feel threatened. We are not atacking you, just setting the record straight is all. This is why even though i don't always agree with you A'isha, I do respect and appreciate her and quite often we find that we are looking at the same topic from different perspectives. In the process we both come away learning something.

By the way, I also look forward to being able to meet you in person.

With love and respect.

Aisha Azar

Dear Jeffrey,
There is nothing that suggests that what was brought to the Chicago World's Fair in 1893 that was "belly dance". That is a mythology. Sol bloom brought Algerian dancers over and he got them in France, if memory serves. I can't really remember who brought the Turks and the Egyptian Ghawazi dancers over....It may have been Sol. The dancer that Thomas Edison filmed was a Ghawazi dancer from what I could discern on the film when I saw it. Many people, obviously including you, have just lumped everything that comes out of the Middle East as "belly dance", but it is not. I have been reading about the subject long before "Looking for Little Egypt" was published.
Most Orientalist paintings had nothing to do with the reality of the dance, but were simply fantasies.... sometimes including the accurate dress of the Ghawazi, or for that matter the women on the cities, during that time period. Thewere NOT belly dancers! The Ghawazi coat, as you call it is actually a Turkish garment called "Yelek", which was adopted by many Egyptian women in the cities during the time that the Ottoman Empire uled the country. For more information on this read:
Stillman, Y.K. (2000). Arab dress from the dawn of Islam to modern times. p. 84 and 100. Boston: Brill
This is an Islamic Studies Textbook. Yadida Kalfon Stillman is an Arab scholar.

There were no Egyptian courts during the time we are referring to here, and there is plenty of evidence to show that the Pharoahs did not have belly dancers at their courts, because to paraphrase E. Antar, the paintings that show dancers in Ancient Egypt, show movements that are far too angular and stylized to be the movements of belly dance.

Yes belly dance must evolve... and it is doing so in its countreis of origin with essence intact. Why is it that so many westerners think that Arabs are not capable of evolving their own art forms without our illustrious assistance? They are evolving the dance and keeping its spirit and meaning all the while. The dance is not stagnating in its countries of origin just because we aren't there to tell it what to do. Evolution in any art from still needs to follow certain guidlines if it is still to be its orignal thing. One does not add roller skates or bat wings to the Japanese Spring rite and still call it Sakura. Re your art example below... I note that the names changed drastically as the art form changed from place to place. It evolved, but nobody any called it Van Eyck, did they???? Like Tarik said, all we want is clear defintion and clarification. this would help not only dancer not be confused but add greatly to the education of the general public as well.


Dear Tarik,
Thank you and right back at you!!

Regards to you both,
A'isha

Aziyade

To confuse matters further, the term "Ghawazee" or "Ghaziyah" was often used to describe ANY public performer/dancer/singer, with no thought to specific ethnicity or tribal affiliation.

It's only in realtively recent history that we've started equating the term "Ghawazee" solely with the Roma/Sinti/Nawari people.

I'm really curious about something -- have all the interested parties in this debate actually SEEN, for example Ibrahim Farrah's "Rare Glimpses" with the Lebanese Gypsies, or the Edison footage? Or the Sombati woman who danced with a chair in her mouth -- I can't locate the clip. Princess something? Or for that matter, any of Aisha Ali's films? Or Morocco's films in north Africa?

(Tarik and A'isha, I'm SURE you have -- heck, Tarik probably has access to more video footage than I could ever dream of!)
/jealousy mode

It's just that seeing this dance in context, in situ, really was an eye-opener and "aha" situation for me.


On another note:

I'm a card-carrying member of the "I love American Cabaret" club. I think what we've done with this dance is often very amazing and exciting. And when it's explored and expanded by knowledgeable people -- like Alexandra King, for one -- it takes on a unique viewpoint, outside of the whole Orientalist fantasy.

The term "belly dance" isn't my favorite phrase, but I think it applies to the American form of the dance nicely. And when I go to a "bellydance" show, I'm not surprised to see swords, extensive veilswork, poi spinning, Arabian-Spanish fusion or tribal improvisation because I guess that's what the term has evolved to encompass.

But like Tarik, if I go to a show (ESPECIALLY a cultural event) and see "Middle Eastern Dance" or Egyptian dance or "Raqs" anything advertised, I EXPECT to see exactly that. If it's Egyptian dance, then I would expect an Egyptian in the audience to be able to say "Oh yeah, I recognize that kind of dancing/music."