How relevant is Egypt to Modern Belly Dance - Page 2

Dipali · 09-21-2006, 02:14 PM

Dear chryssanthi sahar,
Yes i liked the idea OF bellydance originated in India , Probably because i am from India, But i knew its not true, probably the theory came from the Gypsys that travelled arround all the way to middle east from northern India,But agree probably the dance has its origin in the birth rituals of Black Africa,

Dipali · 09-21-2006, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

How relavant is Egypt to Raks Sharki today? For people who are into fusion, Tribal and gothic, perhaps there is not so much a concern, however, for those of us who are practitioners of classical and contemporary Raks Sharki, keeping that connection is not only important, but essential..

That was my question? How many dancers really think or know that Bellydance is an art form with such a cultural background, And how important it is to know about it all for the dancers? My arguments about Egypt just a spritual connection for the dancers is still there... Belly Dance is not any more a restricted dance style, or probably never was ,As Tarik Sultan stated For people who are into fusion, Tribal and gothic, perhaps noT MUCH a
concern about the History and importance of Egypt and its influence ,

Moon · 09-21-2006, 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dipali

Yes i liked the idea OF bellydance originated in India , Probably because i am from India

Do you speak Hindi? I'm trying to learn some, but it's difficult.

Ok sorry for going off topic. I've also read somewhere that there are theories that bellydance originated from India, because certain arm movements are very similar.

Dipali · 09-21-2006, 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Moon

Do you speak Hindi? I'm trying to learn some, but it's difficult.

I can understand perfectly, but i have problems with writing and speaking, In india we have a popular dialect , specially amongs the younger generation , its call hinglish, its a mixture of English and Hindi,I am good at that,

Its just easy to speak hindi with few english words, I do understand Urdu, but cant read or write,
oops off topic, lol...

Tarik Sultan · 09-21-2006, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dipali

That was my question? How many dancers really think or know that Bellydance is an art form with such a cultural background, And how important it is to know about it all for the dancers?

Unfortunately there are still far too many who don't know anything about it. They think its just about wearing a two piece costume and being sexy and that's it!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dipali

My arguments about Egypt just a spritual connection for the dancers is still there... Belly Dance is not any more a restricted dance style, or probably never was ,As Tarik Sultan stated For people who are into fusion, Tribal and gothic, perhaps noT MUCH a
concern about the History and importance of Egypt and its influence ,

The problem is that right from the beginning there was a separation from the culture. The fact that we as a community STILL for some reason have a problem using the culturally correct name for the dance is one aspect of this. Once we started calling it belly dance, rather than using the cultural name Raks Sharki, or Raks Baladi, we said that the culture doesn't matter. We were more concerned with the costume and the "mystique", rather than the reality of the culture. There is no other ethnic dance form in the world that had to be renamed, or translated into another language. Indian dances are referred to by their real names. No one feels the need to rename or translate Bharatanatyam or Katak. No one needs to rename or translate Flamenco. However, we it comes to us, we need to rename it translate it and find every excusse in the book to not honor it by using the culturally correct name.

To not use the correct name is to take one step away from the cultural roots. It became more about an image. It was marketed as an exotic girlie show by impersarios and club owners, a way to attract the attention of husbands and boyfriends, (make your husband a sultan), by dancers looking for an angle to make some extra bucks, an expression of feminine power and sexuality by feminists, a way to loose weight, reclaim your sexuality, express your sexuality. With each step it moved further and further away from the reality of being an expression of joy from a particular culture.

Very few people made an effort to learn about the real culture, like there are now. The problem is that by the time those of us who cared about the real thing came along there were al ready all of these of shoots. Don't get me wrong, I think good dance is good dance, however, we need to be clear what we are talking about. I really do not like this term belly dance for all of the reasons mentioned and many more that I won't go into.

Tribal is Tribal. It is inspired by many different elements. It is its own thing. In the 50's and 60's a style developed in the ethnic clubs that was a mixture of Turkish, Lebanese and Egyptian styles. It is American. I would call it American style Raks. Then there is the classiccal Egyptian style, Why can't we call it Classical Raks Sharki? Then there is the contemporary Raks Sharki, just as there is contemporary Ballet.

Another problem with calling everything belly dance, is that it lumps us all together as if we are all the same and we are not! I don't belly dance, I do Raks Sharki, Raks Baladi and Shabbi and when I teach I make the students aware of the differences. People may disagree with me, but to get back to your question, those other styles are not connected to the culture. They have borrowed bits and pieces from the original movement vocabulary, but because everyone is SOOO hung up on the visuals, any time someone runs out in a costume with a bare midrift it gets labled belly dance.
For those of us who practice the authentic art of Raks Sharki and its related cultural forms, the connectin to the Egyptian culture is essential. You can not do Classical or contemporary Raks Sharki to Rap music or Rock music, nor in my opinion Pop or Rock music sung in Arabic, that is a form of fusion. You can not do Classical Sharki and add Modern or Jazz or Ballet or Indian Dance, that would also be a form of fusion.

Classical Raks has a very definate movement vocabulary, is done to classical Arabic music, while contemoprasry Raks uses the same vocabulary and is done to conteporary Arabic music. Therefore, it is essential to be knowledgable and connected to the culture in order to retain the essence and identity of the dance.

taheya · 09-21-2006, 06:36 PM

Has anyone got any videos of traditional raks sharki? Alternatively can you point me in the direction of where i can see some. I would really like to see the difference.

Aisha Azar · 09-21-2006, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tarik Sultan

Unfortunately there are still far too many who don't know anything about it. They think its just about wearing a two piece costume and being sexy and that's it!

The fact that we as a community STILL for some reason have a problem using the culturally correct name for the dance is one aspect of this. Once we started calling it belly dance, rather than using the cultural name Raks Sharki, or Raks Baladi, we said that the culture doesn't matter.

We were more concerned with the costume and the "mystique", rather than the reality of the culture. There is no other ethnic dance form in the world that had to be renamed, or translated into another language. Indian dances are referred to by their real names. No one feels the need to rename or translate Bharatanatyam or Katak. No one needs to rename or translate Flamenco. However, we it comes to us, we need to rename it translate it and find every excusse in the book to not honor it by using the culturally correct name.

To not use the correct name is to take one step away from the cultural roots. It became more about an image. It was marketed as an exotic girlie show by impersarios and club owners, a way to attract the attention of husbands and boyfriends, (make your husband a sultan), by dancers looking for an angle to make some extra bucks, an expression of feminine power and sexuality by feminists, a way to loose weight, reclaim your sexuality, express your sexuality. With each step it moved further and further away from the reality of being an expression of joy from a particular culture.

Very few people made an effort to learn about the real culture, like there are now. The problem is that by the time those of us who cared about the real thing came along there were al ready all of these of shoots. Don't get me wrong, I think good dance is good dance, however, we need to be clear what we are talking about. I really do not like this term belly dance for all of the reasons mentioned and many more that I won't go into.

Tribal is Tribal. It is inspired by many different elements. It is its own thing. In the 50's and 60's a style developed in the ethnic clubs that was a mixture of Turkish, Lebanese and Egyptian styles. It is American. I would call it American style Raks. Then there is the classiccal Egyptian style, Why can't we call it Classical Raks Sharki? Then there is the contemporary Raks Sharki, just as there is contemporary Ballet.

Another problem with calling everything belly dance, is that it lumps us all together as if we are all the same and we are not! I don't belly dance, I do Raks Sharki, Raks Baladi and Shabbi and when I teach I make the students aware of the differences. People may disagree with me, but to get back to your question, those other styles are not connected to the culture. They have borrowed bits and pieces from the original movement vocabulary, but because everyone is SOOO hung up on the visuals, any time someone runs out in a costume with a bare midrift it gets labled belly dance.
For those of us who practice the authentic art of Raks Sharki and its related cultural forms, the connectin to the Egyptian culture is essential. You can not do Classical or contemporary Raks Sharki to Rap music or Rock music, nor in my opinion Pop or Rock music sung in Arabic, that is a form of fusion. You can not do Classical Sharki and add Modern or Jazz or Ballet or Indian Dance, that would also be a form of fusion.

Classical Raks has a very definate movement vocabulary, is done to classical Arabic music, while contemoprasry Raks uses the same vocabulary and is done to conteporary Arabic music. Therefore, it is essential to be knowledgable and connected to the culture in order to retain the essence and identity of the dance.

Dear Tarik,
I am in complete agreement that there are far too many dancers who do not know or care about the dance and the cultures from which it springs.
While I do agree with you in many instances, there are things that you say here that are not quite accurate.

I care very much about the dance as a cultural dance, and I do not wear the costume just to look sexy. Nevertheless, I understand that the average American knows my dance by the name "belly dance". For him or her, this name implies that it is the dance that I do. The words "Raqs Sharghi", are meaningless until I take the time to exlain that this is the name of the dance in Arabic, and give him/her its correct translation. Bharata Natyam and other such dances have not aready been labeled as something else that the American understands it to be in English, and for that matter, I do not think "Bollywood" is a Hindi word, though I could be wrong. " Belly dance" is not the least bit offensive to me, or to the Arabs that I know either. In fact, no one has ever complained. They see it as the English translation, not in words but in meaning. And by using the words, "belly dance", I am not implying in the least that the "culture doesn't matter". In fact, in the way that I use the term, it matters implicitly. I would say I care about the culture as much as you or anyone else does.
In its native countries, the dance has not "been marketed' very much differently than what you describe above. Belly dance and Raqs Sharghi are the same dance, translated from one country to the next. The dance, under any name in the east or the west, is still a dance that is not really done on stage by "nice girls". Belly dance is a very apt description and English name for the dance. I like it!

Regards,
A'isha

Aziyade · 09-21-2006, 09:23 PM

Taheya,
You might check out Aisha Ali's dvds -- she has two that are strictly her performing various dances from Egypt and North Africa.

http://www.aisha-ali.com/araf/index.html

She performs a version of "Sumbati Ghawazee" dance, which she credits in the notes as being the mother of modern Sharki. That looks kind of like what I've seen referred to as "Mohammed Ali Street style," without much obvious influence from ballet and ballroom like you see in "golden era" Sharki.

I don't know -- do we call that style "Baladi" ? I grew up calling it the folkloric style, which people keep pointing out to me is NOT the proper terminology. However that's what Shareen el Safy calls it, so there.

There's a pretty obvious difference (to me) between Sohair Zaki and Nadia Hamdi. But as for what to call it, I don't know.

Tarik Sultan · 09-21-2006, 10:22 PM

Quote: