cathy

Oscar Wilde originally wrote this play in French in 1894. It was translated into English and published in English in 1895. World premiere took place in Paris in 1896 (while Wilde was in prison). It was not publically performed in England until 1931. I have a collection of Wilde that includes facsimiles of the title page and several drawings from the 1895 English edition with illustrations by Wilde's friend Aubrey Beardsley. They are all what I would call "art deco" style pen and ink drawings and feature a lot of diaphonous clothing and a lot of nakedness. It also includes photos of various productions including Lili Marberg as Salome in a 1907 Munich production (flapper style strapless dres, elaborate headgear with dangling side pieces) and Maud Allan holding a very life-like severed head in a 1908 production of "the Vision of Salome" --a DANCE (not the play) performed in London in 1908. In that photo she is wearing a diaphonous circle skirt with what appear to be sequins along the edge, a jeweled belt, and a jewled bra or abbreviated choli top with draped beads over the abdomen, going down to the top of the belt. And a matching headpiece with draped beads or pearls. She has what I would call a flapper type hair style--shoulder length, even waves, bangs. Then there is a photo of Theda Bara (original name: Theodosia Goodman) in the 1918 Fox film "vamp of Vamps" based on the Salome story. She is barefoot and wearing a very loose, drapey, white, sleeveless ankle-length tunic/nightgown kind of thing, and very heavy black eye makeup. There are also scenes from the 1922 Alla Nazimova move Salome with costumes and sets by Natacha Rambova (again, what I would call very art deco). And a drawing from a production originally scheduled for St. Petersburg (then banned and instead performed in Paris) in 1922 with Ida Rubinstein as Salome. This features her in something very much like a two-piece bedlah--strapless bra, dangling fringe all around, dark hip wrap with split skirt below, wrist pieces.

I also skimmed through the text for the play and looked especially at the dance scene. Wilde does NOT specify anything about Salome's costume except this:

Herod: Wherefore dost thou tarry, Salome?
Salome: I am waiting until my slaves bring perfumes to me and the seven veils, and take off my sandals. (Slaves bring perfumes and the seven veils, and take off the sandals of Salome.)
Herod: Ah, you are going to dance with naked feet. Tis well! Your little feet will be like white doves. They will be like little white flowers upon the trees...No, no, she in going to dance on blood. There is blood split on the ground. She must not dance on blood. It were an evil omen.
(more discussion of blood and the moon)

The actual dance is not described--stage direction is just:

(Salome dances the dance of the seven veils.)

I have done some more research about Wilde's literary influences (mostly French) for the story of Salome, but this is straying from the costume question. Wilde was most interested in decadence, wit, and exposing societal hypocrisy. He was by no means the first to exploit the Biblical reference to the "daughter of Herodias" dancing before Herod and asking for the head of John the Baptist.

Cathy

cathy

Herod ruled the Roman client states of Galilee and Perea as Tetrarch from 4 BC to 34 AD and the events were recorded about 65-80 AD in the Gospels of Matthew and Mark, who were definitely not there at the time.

The name of Salome does appear in Jewish Antiquities XVIII: Chapter 5, section 2, footnote 2, by Flavius Josephus, but no mention of dancing is made there. The event was of POLITICAL interest because it involved the beheading of John the Baptist.

Whatever costumes the literary character Salome wore in the era 19th century England and France onwards, had a lot more to do with their imaginations than any historical research.

Again, if we saw that Raks Sharki per se began in the 1920s in Cairo (also debatable, I know!) then stagings of Wilde's story of Salome may have influenced costuming but just as likely those costumes were influenced by the same larger trends as everything else.

Cathy

Tarik Sultan

Exactly. India was the first Eastern country that Western Europe became acquainted with. They were there the longest, Portugal was the first to reach it in the 16th century. Therefore, it was India, not the Middle East that was foremost in Europeans minds when one spoke of the Orient. So yes, the image was in the minds of Europeans long before Hollywood, but the template was based on an Indian inspired theme.

Tarik Sultan

Oh that's my roommate! Eats all my food constantly and always watching my T.V.!

Tarik Sultan

Exactly. This was a trend and mindset that affected not only the image of dance, but the whole of Middle Eastern society. Gypsy posted a film series a while back called Reel Bad Arabs that explains this attitude in the West. This is part 1 of the series:

Aisha Azar

Dear Dipali,
We Children of the 60s here in the States got very well acquainted with the Kama Sutra of Vatsyayana ( Please excuse spelling), and do know our linghams from our yonies!! In fact I still have a copy, along with a Bagavhad Gita and some other Hindi texts from the days when I was looking to define my spirituality. I think my studies greatly helped me to understand that there is never any separation from it, not matter what.
Regards,
A'isha

Tarik Sultan

Ok, but it still does not explian why india? Indonisian costumes were also split into where they not?

Indonesian culture, religion and dress is heavily influenced by Indian culture as Dipali explained previously. And as I explained India is the Eastern culture that Europeans have had the most and longest contact with. That is why it held and to some extent still holds such a preeminent place in the minds of the West as being the quintessential representation of the East.


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There is nothing like it in Europe, or anywhere in the Middle east. Not in Egypt, not in Turkey, not anywhere in North Africa, no where but India do we find this type of design being worn and still worn to this day.

Nothing like this perhaps but the coktail dresses etc were and I am talking about those too.


Can you show me a picture or video clip of the style that you are talking about? Then I might be able to tell you what it was.


Yes, this was my point which is why I feel the styles which developed the 'bedlah' was perhaps influenced by many sources.
It is difficult to know what the eraliest ones may have looked like and what exactly was in the minds of the people whom made them.


Yes and no. Many people doing their spin on what they think the ideal representation of the East should look like based on ideas of the exotic mostly from India and to a lesser extent Turkish dress. However, we do know what the first ones looked like because we have the pictures. Exactly what was on the minds of the people who made them? They wanted to show the exotic east or what they thought exotic should look like. It was a reflection of what they thought of the people of those areas. Watch the video series Reel Bad Arabs.


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You have to understand these scenes in the context of the movie and not think that this was a reflection of what actually happened in an Oriental dance.
I do understand them. I alkso believe that what was happenning in oriental dance was shaped by these dancers whom also performed other dance styles and brought them together. I feel the same was done with costume to some extent.


To an extent. However, the basic costume that they adopted had already been well established in the world of entertainment long before the Casino Opera. What elements were added to the dance to create Raks Sharki and what other routines they did is a slightly different issue.

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No one was doing Oriental routines in Hula skirts or Samba dresses.

No but ruffles on Oriental dance costumes came from somehwere and it was not Egypt or India.

Yes, they were a reflection of the fashions of the times in the larger world. Therefore, the initial inspiration in the West was an outfit based on Indian lines. That outfit is then embellished and modified. Its then adopted as the uniform in Egypt. They in turn do their spin on it following fashion trends. In the 40's we may see padded shoulders because that was the style in regular dress. In the 50's we see pointed bras because that was the fashion then, mid 50's we see skirts with crinolins. 60's and 70's when hem lines were raised and showing more leg, we see the three paneled skirt to show more leg. in the 80's when women were wearing sarong like lines, we see the narrow sarong like skirt. In the 90's when women in the west at least were wearing spandex shorts, we see that creeping into costumes. Doesn't change the historical fact of where the basic 2 piece outfit originated. Only that once it reached egypt, they in turn added their own personal touches.

Caroline_afifi

Ok, I can sort of see this, but it kinda feels from all the discussion that it came from India via Europe and back again?

The Silk route did this for centuries anyhow. Look at the Persian costumes and Various Arab countries in the ME and we will see this influence.

I am still trying to figure out why a dancer at Casino opera would make the statement...make me a costume in two pieces like one from India. I am not sure how consious this was which is why I said it is hard to guess what people were thinking. Unless there is evidence because someone has it written down then it is purely guess work based on historical costumes paths.

I have seen Reel bad Arabs and have met and lunched with Simon Shaheen.
Aladain is a good example of Hollywood mixing India with the ME.

I do understand what is being said but I can apply this concept to everything.
India has for time been a major source of inspiration in terms of fabrics and design.

Is this what we are saying in Summary?
No matter where it came from (via Paris, Rome or Hollywood) it was influenced by Indian dress? then it was embellished with ideas from various other places?
If so, I can accept this. I just dont get why India would have been such a fashion influence on Egypt in 1920 in a direct way.

I am no good at Finding pictures and attaching but i will do my best.

There is a photo of Samia in a navy/black sequin number which looks like a cocktail dress cut into two. She has her hands above her head. I will see what i can do.

What early photos do we have then which look like Indian costumes?

Tarik Sultan

[QUOTE=Aniseteph;90401]Excuse language, but to quote Ned Flanders, "Aw h*ll diddly ding dong CRAP!" - some stupid site just crashed my browser and lost my post.



I'm not so sure (but open to persuasion!). Here's why...

I posted the French painting not because I believed it illustrated what the real dancers would have worn, but because it represents the mindset of the painter and/or patrons... and it's something very bedlah-ish already.

Now looking closely at the little tops those authentic dancers of the late 19th century are wearing (over long sleeved close fitting tops), I see similar in some more of those old paintings - tops like that or like those "Turkish vests" (do these vests have Ottoman influence? ). Covering the upper back but cut low or even under the bust, and cropped to right under the bust line, NOT like the slightly longer choli style. To me the Indian tops are very different - far more coverage over the front than the Turkish vest or bra type top, longer line and typically sleeved.

Remember I didn't say it was a direct copy, but based on the idea. What the painting shows us is that there is a desire in the European mind already to see as much skin as possible. No one danced in public showing any amount of bare skin at that time.

As for the vest. From looking through my photos I see two types. There is one type that is very similar to a choli and another that is more open but still tight fitting and under the bust to give support. I think that these are just variations of the same thing, form following function and the cut depending on the time period, region or fashion.

Now as far as the costume that developed. If the intent is to show as much skin without actually showing the breasts, you're going to come up basically with the same thing. However, because India already has the tradition of a two piece outfit, I think that plays a major role. However, as we both see, there is that desire to see skin. So most likely we are both correct.

As for the skirt. If you look at the skirts the Ghawazee started to wear, the lines are nothing at all like a Bedlah. The line is straighter and the fabric much stiffer. However, I think its entirely possible that someone might have thought to themselves, "what if we substitute an Indian style skirt or one similar to it instead of the harem pants and stiff skirt"?

I think that there were many different people doing their take on the East or what they thought it should look like. The concept of bejeweled fabrics I think is definitely Indian inspired because nothing like that exists in the Egypt or Turkey. The bare middle coming from both India as well as imagining what the traditional outfit would look like without the blouse. You can see that with the dark top, dark bottom and white middle. It does create that split image. So yes, I see your point and think that we are both right. there were both of these things happening at the same time.

The main point however, is that whatever the inspirations, the Bedlah was in fact a Western adaptation of the what they thought Eastern costume should be. It was the creation of the East through a lens of Western fantasy. An image that would later go on to inspire the celebration of the female form in Western reviews and night clubs and which eventually was adopted by Egyptians in the 20th century, who would create their own spin on it, which continues to evolve to this day.

Just goes to show you how an idea can take on a life of its own and evolve over time.

Caroline_afifi

here is one I found.

The other one is another from a movie from about the 40's. I will search again. I think it has lace on it if anyone else know the one i mean.

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