what do you consider to be damaging to the future of Middle Eastern dance? - Page 7

Aisha Azar · 07-14-2008, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizaj

How can I be offended...you know little of the dance scene over here so I'll be more detailed.
We have haflas that are literally parties..every one boogies after maybe teacher and one class performance and teacher encourages everyone to dress in costumes if they wish
There are haflas that are one long performance platform (like mine were) and only performers dress in costume.
Neither of these attract either the GP nor the Arabic community (if there is one)
There are theatre staged performance platforms for local communities and here teachers will expect their classes to dress and behave in a more professional manner even if they are rank amateurs and have paid to be there
as there is a paying public.( but even this audience will be mainlybelly dancers ...in civvies.)
There are staged theatre performances were local professionals and teachers may dance and gain professional "conditions" reign because there is a paying public.
There are "haflas" or platforms at festivals where well known teachers and guests perform for attendees who are belly dancers. Professionalism rules for the performers but the attendees may dress up as there is a "party" after. these do NOT attract the GP.
As far as boogying is concerned I tend to do it in jeans and T shirt as I am too damn idle to dress up if I am not performing .
Apart from the silly women who get themselves at the opening of an envelope in "costume", floating around the High St on a rainy day in chiffon and talking into the TV reporters camera/mike about how good it is for their sex life, most belly dance events don't touch the GP and therefore wether a dancer wears a bedlah or not to an after show partyin exclusive premises is not going to effect our dance.
My offence Aisha is not that you seek to tell me about the US scene but that whenever I make a comment like this, your return post comes across as a put-down wether you intend it or not. The "tone" of your post came across as one-up manship and I don't think I'll be the only one who thinks that.
I bow to your superior knowledge of the dance in general and in the USA as you have obviously been performing and teaching longer than my 11 years so I obviously take heed to what you write and take it to heart.

You seem to me to LOOK for reasons to be offended. I am not going to play that game. As I said before, I am sick of you looking for offense when none is there at all. If you take heed to what I write, quit trying to find offense where there is none..
My post did not come across as one-upmanhsip unless YOU were deciding to interpret it that way. ALL people who have been involved in any kind of entertainment business would say the same thing...except belly dancers. I repeat, WE ( not just people in the UK) ALL, across the whole world, need to train our students from the very beginning to understand that the place to be in costume is in the Greenroom or on stage. These fundamental things are just as important as learning fundamental movement in that they are the basic knowledge and action that will begin to get us more respect among other dance forms and among the general public. Haflas are not only fun parties.They are also a training ground for going on to becoming a professional dancer, and even amateurs who never intend to do that should still be taught the professional way to conduct themselves.
Now, if that attitude and approach to the dance that we all profess to be loving and caring about makes me a terrible, rude, offensive monster, then so be it. I'll put my Bitch from Hell outfit on when it gets back from the dry cleaners.

Caroline_afifi · 07-14-2008, 03:30 PM

The discussion is getting somewhat heated and we are discussing what brings the dance down.

Can we all relax a little?
I think there has just been some misunderstanding which can happen easily writing on these forums.

Back to the topic.
Women often get chances to perform in group dances at Haflah etc. and sometimes leave the costume on to dance in as they want to get their wear out of it. I personally prefer people to get dressed back into civvies but people love to spend hours dressing for these occasions.

There is a discussion here between being the killjoys of perhaps the only fun some women get all month and perhaps a greater discussion about the integrity of the dance.

How interesting... what does everyone think?

Aisha Azar · 07-14-2008, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

The discussion is getting somewhat heated and we are discussing what brings the dance down.

Can we all relax a little?
I think there has just been some misunderstanding which can happen easily writing on these forums.

Back to the topic.
Women often get chances to perform in group dances at Haflah etc. and sometimes leave the costume on to dance in as they want to get their wear out of it. I personally prefer people to get dressed back into civvies but people love to spend hours dressing for these occasions.

There is a discussion here between being the killjoys of perhaps the only fun some women get all month and perhaps a greater discussion about the integrity of the dance.

How interesting... what does everyone think?

Dear Caroline,
I think that we need to instill certain values in our students from the beginning, to indulge in behaviors that are beneficial to the dance as far as its larger image. My opinion is that for far too long, many teachers have felt the need to be careful and err on the side of not losing any students, rather than to try to instill values in them about what is good for the dance itself.
When we begin to treat our art form as if it WERE an art form, then it will be harder for other professionals and the public at large to point fingers at our behaviors that make us seem less than professional. This is just like teaching corporate culture, or manners at charm school, or any other type of "how to act under these specific circumstances" type of classes. My opinion is that we need to establish Greenroom behaviors in our dancers from the first show or party, to the day they go on to be an amazing professional dancer! I don;t think this is too much to ask. People can still have fun and consider the dance at the same time. If its only about the costume, then that is not a very good thing.
Regards,
A'isha

Lydia dubai · 07-14-2008, 03:50 PM

ayayayay why like that.....ok this is what i think..I am with aisha saying that artist must not been seen in their costume after or before the show,it kinda take the magic away very simple...and honestly i am very serieus about this....now i know nothing about ,,hafla,,s lol its ofcourse the arabic word for party ...so i think we have hafla,s here 365 days a year....but Lizaj i am also with you if there is a nice arabic party and you are going to have fun and its like a ,,arabic,,teamnight it is nice to dress op specialy if you dont get the change a lot to do so...But if i would go to such thing (i hope 1 day) lol...I would for sure never wear the same costume i would wear on stage when performing,i would pick something specialy for that,then again if your wardrobe is not that big?? so i am with both of you...come on like Caroline said sttttttttt.... its ok its summer, nice weather ,everybody is dancing ,just be happy enjoy life is so short..hugs everybody,Lydia

Reen.Blom · 07-14-2008, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lizaj

...at our kind of hafla which is a party for students and there are usually NO members of the GP, what harm will Miss 2 year dancer do by coming along to bop in her bedlah she has bought from the ******** bazaar.

Gosh I love the way you put it!!

You all professional ladies should also remember, that some students do not intend to ever perform for any other audience than family members in living room for cousin's uncle 75th birthday or fellow students at student party.... LOL

Yay get out your rusty coin belt and glitters... LOL

Aisha Azar · 07-14-2008, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reen.Blom

Gosh I love the way you put it!!

You all professional ladies should also remember, that some students do not intend to ever perform for any other audience than family members in living room for cousin's uncle 75th birthday or fellow students at student party.... LOL

Yay get out your rusty coin belt and glitters... LOL

Dear Reen,
That still is no reason to sit in the audience in a belly dance outfit.
If you intend to perform at all, along with that comes a certain amount of responsibility to the dance form.I don't see what is so wrong with that....
Regards,
A'isha

Caroline_afifi · 07-14-2008, 06:22 PM

I am struggling terribly with this.

I really dont like the fancy dress aspect of the dance but I am not into fancy dress in General. However, it does feel extremely elitist to say only pro's can dress up.

Some women do not want to perform on a stage and dont aspire to.
If they can dress up for a private haflah, then this may prevent woman from becoming stage performers justto wear costumes if there is lack of opportunity elsewhere?
Also the all the vendors in the Khan el Khalil would go bust as 'pro's' never buy
souk costumes..

The belly dance pound exsists on hobbyists so I could see the entire scene come crashing down as a result!

Come on you lot reading this... just how important is dressing up for you???
would it take the shine off dancing for you? would you give up?

This is very important research!!

Aisha Azar · 07-14-2008, 07:33 PM

Dear Caroline,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

I am struggling terribly with this.

Quote:

I really dont like the fancy dress aspect of the dance but I am not into fancy dress in General. However, it does feel extremely elitist to say only pro's can dress up.

WHO is saying only pros can dress up? At any hafla you will find many amateurs. At my own we have amateurs. They certainly can dress up and appear on stage and are as welcome as any professional to perform on stage in costume, etc. What I do not like to see is anyone, professional or amateur sitting in the audience in costume or in cover ups that scream they are dancers. There is a HUGE difference between asking people to respect that costumes belong on stage and what you are saying above. No one said amateurs can't dress in belly dance garb, but they should do so for the stage, not to be audience members.... and the same applies to professionals.

Quote:

Some women do not want to perform on a stage and dont aspire to.
If they can dress up for a private haflah, then this may prevent woman from becoming stage performers justto wear costumes if there is lack of opportunity elsewhere?

So.... would these women be seen at ballet recitals wearing tutus in the audience? Would you or anyone else find that acceptable?

Quote:

Also the all the vendors in the Khan el Khalil would go bust as 'pro's' never buy
souk costumes..

Actually, I see quite a few souk costumes on professional dancers!! And one can be an amateur, as I said, and wear their costumes on stage, when they are actually going to be dancing. That is what the costumes are for!!

Quote:

The belly dance pound exsists on hobbyists so I could see the entire scene come crashing down as a result!

If its only about putting on the belly dancing suit, maybe that would not be so bad, then.... It might also put a stop to a lot of weirdness that is going on in belly dance right now if people were obligated to live up to the costume. This is not exactly relevant to the point of asking that people not wear costumes when they are audience members anyway, as plenty of amateurs do like to dress in the dressing room and not hang out in the audience in their costumes. Maybe it is because their instructors have taken the time to educate them as to entertainment ettiquette....???

Quote:

Come on you lot reading this... just how important is dressing up for you???
would it take the shine off dancing for you? would you give up?

Dressing up is VERY important for me, as a way to enhance the dance when I am performing. But, when I am an audience member and not a performer, I leave the bedlah and the cover-up at home, whether it is a hafla, a private party or a full out stage production in which I am appearing in several different costumes throughout the evening.

Quote:

This is very important research!!

I agree.

Regards,
A'isha

cathy · 07-14-2008, 08:37 PM

I would never appear anywhere in costume except onstage or backstage (or the fitting room). This was how I was trained and I agree with it. I limit the amount of time I am seen in public with the costume and coverup on over it too, in fact.

I think it's kind of strange how hafla wear includes both costumes and things that are obviously inspired by them. But this stuff has leaked into the fashion world, and I don't think there is anything anyone can do to get it back now. I also thought it was very weird that a fair number of attendees at AWS were wearing real costume elements to classes! Or in some cases, regular lingerie bras.

All my performances have been at student showcases in restaurants. At first I struggled with the idea of wearing a professional costume at all. It seemed like by putting one on I was making a statement like I was implying that I was hot s**t, either a professional dancer, which I knew I wasn't, or as good as one. But then I gradually came to see wearing a real costume (and later, using an Arabic stage name) as a sign of respect for and commitment to the dance. And now I feel like if you are going to do it, you should do it right (as long as you can afford it). I actually love to see people dance in very plain non-stage clothes though, either in class, at parties, or even onstage impromptu, like the one clip of Tito in jeans and a t-shirt. Sometimes it's even better that way. Sometimes I think people get way too into the costume and forget about the dance.

I think that souk stuff is mostly for tourists.

I am not huge into dressing up in general. I like glitter as much as the next dancer but it belongs on the stage.

P.S. Sorry I could never track you down at AWS, Caroline! I tried! No one had heard of you or Oriental Moon including Yasser! I asked at practically every booth!

Cathy

Caroline_afifi · 07-14-2008, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cathy

I would never appear anywhere in costume except onstage or backstage (or the fitting room). This was how I was trained and I agree with it. I limit the amount of time I am seen in public with the costume and coverup on over it too, in fact.

I think it's kind of strange how hafla wear includes both costumes and things that are obviously inspired by them. But this stuff has leaked into the fashion world, and I don't think there is anything anyone can do to get it back now. I also thought it was very weird that a fair number of attendees at AWS were wearing real costume elements to classes! Or in some cases, regular lingerie bras.

All my performances have been at student showcases in restaurants. At first I struggled with the idea of wearing a professional costume at all. It seemed like by putting one on I was making a statement like I was implying that I was hot s**t, either a professional dancer, which I knew I wasn't, or as good as one. But then I gradually came to see wearing a real costume (and later, using an Arabic stage name) as a sign of respect for and commitment to the dance. And now I feel like if you are going to do it, you should do it right (as long as you can afford it). I actually love to see people dance in very plain non-stage clothes though, either in class, at parties, or even onstage impromptu, like the one clip of Tito in jeans and a t-shirt. Sometimes it's even better that way. Sometimes I think people get way too into the costume and forget about the dance.

I think that souk stuff is mostly for tourists.

I am not huge into dressing up in general. I like glitter as much as the next dancer but it belongs on the stage.

P.S. Sorry I could never track you down at AWS, Caroline! I tried! No one had heard of you or Oriental Moon including Yasser! I asked at practically every booth!

Cathy

Oh No!! I was thinking about you every day!!
Oriental Moon was near the two main workshop doors in the big area by the Ballroom. There were two bazaars, the other one was randa;s but they are part of the same group. I was helping them both with translations etc.
What a pity!!
What did you think of it all?? it was not my scene I am afraid.

07-14-2008, 08:37 PM	#69 (permalink)
cathy Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Brooklyn, New York Posts: 424	I would never appear anywhere in costume except onstage or backstage (or the fitting room). This was how I was trained and I agree with it. I limit the amount of time I am seen in public with the costume and coverup on over it too, in fact. I think it's kind of strange how hafla wear includes both costumes and things that are obviously inspired by them. But this stuff has leaked into the fashion world, and I don't think there is anything anyone can do to get it back now. I also thought it was very weird that a fair number of attendees at AWS were wearing real costume elements to classes! Or in some cases, regular lingerie bras. All my performances have been at student showcases in restaurants. At first I struggled with the idea of wearing a professional costume at all. It seemed like by putting one on I was making a statement like I was implying that I was hot s*t, either a professional dancer, which I knew I wasn't, or as good as one. But then I gradually came to see wearing a real costume (and later, using an Arabic stage name) as a sign of respect for and commitment to the dance. And now I feel like if you are going to do it, you should do it right (as long as you can afford it). I actually love to see people dance in very plain non-stage clothes though, either in class, at parties, or even onstage impromptu, like the one clip of Tito in jeans and a t-shirt. Sometimes it's even better that way. Sometimes I think people get way too into the costume and forget about the dance. I think that souk stuff is mostly for tourists. I am not huge into dressing up in general. I like glitter as much as the next dancer but it belongs on the stage. P.S. Sorry I could never track you down at AWS, Caroline! I tried! No one had heard of you or Oriental Moon including Yasser! I asked at practically every booth! Cathy Last edited by cathy; 07-14-2008 at 08:48 PM.*

07-14-2008, 03:30 PM	#62 (permalink)
Caroline_afifi V.I.P. Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Liverpool UK Posts: 1,285	The discussion is getting somewhat heated and we are discussing what brings the dance down. Can we all relax a little? I think there has just been some misunderstanding which can happen easily writing on these forums. Back to the topic. Women often get chances to perform in group dances at Haflah etc. and sometimes leave the costume on to dance in as they want to get their wear out of it. I personally prefer people to get dressed back into civvies but people love to spend hours dressing for these occasions. There is a discussion here between being the killjoys of perhaps the only fun some women get all month and perhaps a greater discussion about the integrity of the dance. How interesting... what does everyone think?

07-14-2008, 03:50 PM	#64 (permalink)
Lydia dubai V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Dubai United arab emirates Posts: 1,338	ayayayay why like that.....ok this is what i think..I am with aisha saying that artist must not been seen in their costume after or before the show,it kinda take the magic away very simple...and honestly i am very serieus about this....now i know nothing about ,,hafla,,s lol its ofcourse the arabic word for party ...so i think we have hafla,s here 365 days a year....but Lizaj i am also with you if there is a nice arabic party and you are going to have fun and its like a ,,arabic,,teamnight it is nice to dress op specialy if you dont get the change a lot to do so...But if i would go to such thing (i hope 1 day) lol...I would for sure never wear the same costume i would wear on stage when performing,i would pick something specialy for that,then again if your wardrobe is not that big?? so i am with both of you...come on like Caroline said sttttttttt.... its ok its summer, nice weather ,everybody is dancing ,just be happy enjoy life is so short..hugs everybody,Lydia

07-14-2008, 06:22 PM	#67 (permalink)
Caroline_afifi V.I.P. Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Liverpool UK Posts: 1,285	I am struggling terribly with this. I really dont like the fancy dress aspect of the dance but I am not into fancy dress in General. However, it does feel extremely elitist to say only pro's can dress up. Some women do not want to perform on a stage and dont aspire to. If they can dress up for a private haflah, then this may prevent woman from becoming stage performers justto wear costumes if there is lack of opportunity elsewhere? Also the all the vendors in the Khan el Khalil would go bust as 'pro's' never buy souk costumes.. The belly dance pound exsists on hobbyists so I could see the entire scene come crashing down as a result! Come on you lot reading this... just how important is dressing up for you??? would it take the shine off dancing for you? would you give up? This is very important research!!