what do you consider to be damaging to the future of Middle Eastern dance? - Page 24

masrawy · 07-21-2008, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aisha Azar

Dear Andrea,
For me, these dancers are not well trained, because belly dance does not mean executing "perfect" movement in the western sense. And I do not need a belly dancer to make me cry, but I do need her to tell me through her holisitic dance what she feels and to make me feel what she is feeling.
A'isha

Dear Aisha
I hate to differ with you on this one. The dancer have nothing to say to the audience. It is a conversation between the dancer and the music (specially if it is live music). The audience are just a bystander who hapend to listen to this conversation ... either they like it or not. Just like Jazz.
I know I would be flamed for this but from what I have seen from Western dancers is miscommunication between the music and whatever they are doing on the stage. There is two to three seconds lag time difference between them ... bad conversation to listen to. You even sometimes see the lips moving and counting. That's what will kill belly dancing. But hey what do I know it has been said in this thread before just ignore the Egyptian they don't mean what they say and don't know what they are saying anyway.

Regards~Mahmoud

Aisha Azar · 07-21-2008, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masrawy

Dear Aisha
I hate to differ with you on this one. The dancer have nothing to say to the audience. It is a conversation between the dancer and the music (specially if it is live music). The audience are just a bystander who hapend to listen to this conversation ... either they like it or not. Just like Jazz.
I know I would be flamed for this but from what I have seen from Western dancers is miscommunication between the music and whatever they are doing on the stage. There is two to three seconds lag time difference between them ... bad conversation to listen to. You even sometimes see the lips moving and counting. That's what will kill belly dancing. But hey what do I know it has been said in this thread before just ignore the Egyptian they don't mean what they say and don't know what they are saying anyway.

Regards~Mahmoud

Dear Mahmoud,
This is what I have written in my advertising for Raqs sharghi.
"Egyptian belly dance is an authentic ethnic dance in movement and spirit.The dance and dancer are the physical manifestation of an visual compliment to the exotic music they accompany." I understand perfectly that the dance is all about the music.
However, I disagree that when we dance in front of an audience we can ignore them like the are not there. There are times when a good dancer goes into herself when interpreting the music, or interacts with personally the musicians, but at all times she must be aware that there is an audience to what she is doing. Think Fifi Abdou and how much she pays attention to her audiences. I have studied with her, Mouna Said, Naida Hamdi and other Egyptians and they do not ignore their audiences. In fact, many of them even have chat with people in their audiences! Part of our job is to acknowledge the audience and include them in our "conversation" with the music by showing them how to best appreciate both the dance itself and the music. This odes not mean that there is not a line between the professional dancer and her audience, just that there must be interaction that show the dance is for the people as well as for her. The audience are bystanders and observers of that process, but we must always be aware of them, and that we are dancing for them as well as for ourselves. When we see totally selfish dancers, they do not reflect the Egyptian culture at all, which has much of sociability about it.
I certainly will not flame you as I see a lot of miscommunication between many western dancers and music, also!! Some do not even use Middle Eastern music, but they dance to stuff you can't believe instead, cutting all cultural ties. Yet, they still feel okay about calling it "belly dance".
Regards,
A'isha

masrawy · 07-21-2008, 06:49 PM

Dear Aisha
I did not mean for the dancer is to ignore the audience as if they you're in their. In light of your response I was wrong in my assessment and the audience would become a participant in this conversation once they start to clap hands to the music and add another dimension to this art form. that hapend often in the middle east.

I have not seen live performance of Fifi abdou. I am more of Soher Zaki generation. I even had the pleasure of taking her picture for a musical tape cover at Sherifa Fadel night club in el ahram street many .. many moons ago.
I would not think for a moment that you will flame me.Best Regards ~Mahmoud

Aziyade · 07-21-2008, 06:55 PM

This is sort of a sideline to the topic, but I wonder about it sometimes:

If, in order to be truly Middle Eastern in style, you have to use Middle Eastern music -- which I believe -- then does Arab pop music count?

Does Arab pop music where the singer is singing in ENGLISH still count? (Like Khaled often does?)

Does it count if they're Arab, but they sing in English and ABOUT being part of American or Western culture? I'm thinking of the song "We come from the Moon" by the Lebanese girl group "The Four Cats."

Does it count if it's an Arab singer, but she or he is doing a cover of a Western song? Like "Feelings" or "I will always love you" or the Titanic song?

I ask because each example seems like another degree away from being truly "Middle Eastern" -- in that wonderfully classic way that Hafez, Asmahan, Wahab, Om Kathoum, etc are/were.

But then sometimes people who seem to capture that raw FOLK essence are viewed by some people as being too "western" to count as Middle Eastern. Like John Bilezikjian, Jalalladin Takesh, Chris Kalogerson, Saroyan, Kochak, Feenjon Group -- these guys have a sound that is OFTEN darn near identical to Aisha Ali's field recordings. They also have sometimes a jazzy sound, and a lot of them popularized more Turkish or Greek songs, AND they have more modern instruments -- but even with all that I have a hard time considering them less "Middle Eastern" than say, Diana Haddad.

Does everybody have their own personal cutoff for what is and isn't "Middle Eastern" ?

P.S. What if they're from some other culture, but are singing a cover of a Middle Eastern song? (I may be flamed for saying this, but my absolute favorite recording of "Habiba Ya Eini" is Haim Moshe's. He and his musicians really understand call and response, and that wonderful beledi sound.)

Aisha Azar · 07-21-2008, 07:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by masrawy

Dear Aisha
I did not mean for the dancer is to ignore the audience as if they you're in their. In light of your response I was wrong in my assessment and the audience would become a participant in this conversation once they start to clap hands to the music and add another dimension to this art form. that hapend often in the middle east.

I have not seen live performance of Fifi abdou. I am more of Soher Zaki generation. I even had the pleasure of taking her picture for a musical tape cover at Sherifa Fadel night club in el ahram street many .. many moons ago.
I would not think for a moment that you will flame me.Best Regards ~Mahmoud

Dear Mahmoud,
Suheir Zaki is my hero!! How wonderful that you got to be close enough to her to take a photo!! It is a big regret for me that I never got to study with her because to me, she is the dancer who best understood how to deeply interpret the music. My other favorite is Mouna Said and of the new dancers, Randa.

Regards,
A'isha

Aisha Azar · 07-21-2008, 07:36 PM

Dear Aziyade,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aziyade

This is sort of a sideline to the topic, but I wonder about it sometimes:

If, in order to be truly Middle Eastern in style, you have to use Middle Eastern music -- which I believe -- then does Arab pop music count?

Does Arab pop music where the singer is singing in ENGLISH still count? (Like Khaled often does?)

Does it count if they're Arab, but they sing in English and ABOUT being part of American or Western culture? I'm thinking of the song "We come from the Moon" by the Lebanese girl group "The Four Cats."

The thing is that all of these people, no matter what, bring their country of origin into the recording studio with them. There is still the spirit of the culture in all of this music. Khaled is one of my favorite singers and he uses lown from many sources, but in the end, his cultural affiliation is always there.

Quote:

Does it count if it's an Arab singer, but she or he is doing a cover of a Western song? Like "Feelings" or "I will always love you" or the Titanic song?

Usually I find that just as many American musicians or even Arab descended musicians can not quite do justice to capturing that "right" feeling in the music, when Arab singers try to cature the right essence in doing western tunes, they often miss the boat and the end result, like a lot of fusions, just is not quite right. One exception is Ancient Future and Georges Lammam doing Zourouni. It is one of the few pieces where it seems really a good combination of Middle East and West.

Quote:

I ask because each example seems like another degree away from being truly "Middle Eastern" -- in that wonderfully classic way that Hafez, Asmahan, Wahab, Om Kathoum, etc are/were.

I think in many cases, it is still Middle Eastern, becasue the western inoput is interpreted through the cultural filter of the Middle East which is WHY some of those songs that are western sound SO wrong!!).

Quote:

But then sometimes people who seem to capture that raw FOLK essence are viewed by some people as being too "western" to count as Middle Eastern. Like John Bilezikjian, Jalalladin Takesh, Chris Kalogerson, Saroyan, Kochak, Feenjon Group -- these guys have a sound that is OFTEN darn near identical to Aisha Ali's field recordings.

I can't say that I thought any of these guys sounded very decidedly and definitively as belonging to one ethnic group or another. Especially Kockak, who for me made very boring music. I love Jalall Takesh, but to say his music is Turkish, or Arab or Greek or whatever, there is no factor there that gives the listener anything other than a mixed bag. He at least does sound vaguely Middle Eastern. Now, if he was playing with a band that was Egyptian, or Turkish or Persian or whatever, instead of a mish mosh, we can only guess how he would sound, But honestly, I find this same homogenization in a lot of what Hossam Ramzy does. (NOW watch the flames!!!)

Quote:

They also have sometimes a jazzy sound, and a lot of them popularized more Turkish or Greek songs, AND they have more modern instruments -- but even with all that I have a hard time considering them less "Middle Eastern" than say, Diana Haddad.

I have no comment here as I am really not in a position to judge her work, not having heard much of it.

Quote:

Does everybody have their own personal cutoff for what is and isn't "Middle Eastern" ?

I think so, and mostly it has to do with them being on the Middle Eastern side of the cut off!!

Quote:

P.S. What if they're from some other culture, but are singing a cover of a Middle Eastern song? (I may be flamed for saying this, but my absolute favorite recording of "Habiba Ya Eini" is Haim Moshe's. He and his musicians really understand call and response, and that wonderful beledi sound.)

I still find that for a group to be considered Middle Eastern, whether or not the music is beautiful and using a Middle Eastern beat, there has to be that certain elusive something.... I know this is a very unscientific description but then, dance is really not about science, and neither is culture. You know it when you hear it and feel it.

Regards,
A'isha

Andrea Deagon · 07-21-2008, 07:58 PM

When I started learning, there were very few dancers in my area who knew anything about it at all, really. I probably did some very inauthentic dancing before I discovered dance seminars, and was able to study very briefly with a lot of master teachers, all of whom taught what they had discovered themselves. So of course, it was up to me to figure out which path modeled for me was closest to what I wanted to do. I think it was good for me to be on my own, in terms of forcing me to really develop through actually dancing through my own body. On the down side, patchy places in my technique and background knowledge remained for a long time. On the plus side, I was interesting enough that most people didn't notice ...

What I think a good teacher needs to do: 1) portray a movement in a series or sequence of variations, not teach this as "THE hip circle" or whatever. Show how the movement takes different forms, and then lead the student to the one you want to work on in class that day (either as pure technique, or for use in a choreography). 2) Talk about it on the level of eactly how the movement is engineered, including if there are different ways of doing it that have a different feel / look, noting if they are associated with certain dancers. 3) Bring the student's mind to how this movement might have the capacity to convey feeling, or what you might feel if you engineer the movement in this or that way. 4) Make it clear that the student should then explore the varieties of movement to find the one that is closest to her/his own spirit and way of moving. 5) Set all this in a cultural setting, either subtly or overtly.

Caroline_afifi · 07-21-2008, 08:06 PM

[quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by masrawy

Dear Aisha
[size=2]I hate to differ with you on this one. The dancer have nothing to say to the audience. It is a conversation between the dancer and the music (specially if it is live music). The audience are just a bystander who hapend to listen to this conversation ... either they like it or not. Just like Jazz

This so reminds me of something my teacher once said to me...
Dont dance for the audience, dance for the music and yourself. The audience are just the lucky ones to witness it.
If you dance with the audience in mind then you will not be totally with the music and you cannot please all of the people any way.

It was something along these lines and I had forgotton this til you mentioned the above.

Aisha Azar · 07-21-2008, 08:11 PM

Dear Andrea,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrea Deagon

When I started learning, there were very few dancers in my area who knew anything about it at all, really. I probably did some very inauthentic dancing before I discovered dance seminars, and was able to study very briefly with a lot of master teachers, all of whom taught what they had discovered themselves. So of course, it was up to me to figure out which path modeled for me was closest to what I wanted to do. I think it was good for me to be on my own, in terms of forcing me to really develop through actually dancing through my own body. On the down side, patchy places in my technique and background knowledge remained for a long time. On the plus side, I was interesting enough that most people didn't notice ...

I was in the same boat, living in Spokane, Washington at the time. Fortunately, my father had Arab friends when I was a kid and I had early exposure to the music, becasue he loved it.

Quote:

What I think a good teacher needs to do: 1) portray a movement in a series or sequence of variations, not teach this as "THE hip circle" or whatever. Show how the movement takes different forms, and then lead the student to the one you want to work on in class that day (either as pure technique, or for use in a choreography). 2) Talk about it on the level of eactly how the movement is engineered, including if there are different ways of doing it that have a different feel / look, noting if they are associated with certain dancers. 3) Bring the student's mind to how this movement might have the capacity to convey feeling, or what you might feel if you engineer the movement in this or that way. 4) Make it clear that the student should then explore the varieties of movement to find the one that is closest to her/his own spirit and way of moving. 5) Set all this in a cultural setting, either subtly or overtly.

I would agree except that the student needs to be aware that the dance is bigger than themselves, so that #4 needs to be tempered with an awareness of something beyond the ego of the dancer. Also, how do you exemplify a "cultural setting" outside the confines of authentic ethnic belly dance? And can you provide examples of dancers who do this successfully in your mind? I can not think of any examples myself...???? They either a representative of an ethnic belly dance style or they do not seem to be belly dancers to me because of that lack of definitive ethnicity.
Regards,
A'isha

Aisha Azar · 07-21-2008, 08:14 PM

[quote=Caroline_afifi;80183]

Quote:

This so reminds me of something my teacher once said to me...
Dont dance for the audience, dance for the music and yourself. The audience are just the lucky ones to witness it.
If you dance with the audience in mind then you will not be totally with the music and you cannot please all of the people any way.

It was something along these lines and I had forgotton this til you mentioned the above.

Dear Caroline,
I have never seen a good dancer who does not consciously at some time during her dance, give something to the audience. I disagree with your teacher very much on this.
Regards,
A'isha

07-21-2008, 06:49 PM	#233 (permalink)
masrawy Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: In the Shadow Posts: 465	Thinking about it Dear Aisha I did not mean for the dancer is to ignore the audience as if they you're in their. In light of your response I was wrong in my assessment and the audience would become a participant in this conversation once they start to clap hands to the music and add another dimension to this art form. that hapend often in the middle east. I have not seen live performance of Fifi abdou. I am more of Soher Zaki generation. I even had the pleasure of taking her picture for a musical tape cover at Sherifa Fadel night club in el ahram street many .. many moons ago. I would not think for a moment that you will flame me.Best Regards ~Mahmoud __________________ "Be beautiful , the universe will turn beautiful in your eyes!"

07-21-2008, 07:58 PM	#237 (permalink)
Andrea Deagon Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 123	When I started learning, there were very few dancers in my area who knew anything about it at all, really. I probably did some very inauthentic dancing before I discovered dance seminars, and was able to study very briefly with a lot of master teachers, all of whom taught what they had discovered themselves. So of course, it was up to me to figure out which path modeled for me was closest to what I wanted to do. I think it was good for me to be on my own, in terms of forcing me to really develop through actually dancing through my own body. On the down side, patchy places in my technique and background knowledge remained for a long time. On the plus side, I was interesting enough that most people didn't notice ... What I think a good teacher needs to do: 1) portray a movement in a series or sequence of variations, not teach this as "THE hip circle" or whatever. Show how the movement takes different forms, and then lead the student to the one you want to work on in class that day (either as pure technique, or for use in a choreography). 2) Talk about it on the level of eactly how the movement is engineered, including if there are different ways of doing it that have a different feel / look, noting if they are associated with certain dancers. 3) Bring the student's mind to how this movement might have the capacity to convey feeling, or what you might feel if you engineer the movement in this or that way. 4) Make it clear that the student should then explore the varieties of movement to find the one that is closest to her/his own spirit and way of moving. 5) Set all this in a cultural setting, either subtly or overtly. __________________ "I am not contradictory, I am dispersed." (Roland Barthes)

07-21-2008, 06:55 PM	#234 (permalink)
Aziyade V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Cornfields of Evansville Indiana. Posts: 1,050	This is sort of a sideline to the topic, but I wonder about it sometimes: If, in order to be truly Middle Eastern in style, you have to use Middle Eastern music -- which I believe -- then does Arab pop music count? Does Arab pop music where the singer is singing in ENGLISH still count? (Like Khaled often does?) Does it count if they're Arab, but they sing in English and ABOUT being part of American or Western culture? I'm thinking of the song "We come from the Moon" by the Lebanese girl group "The Four Cats." Does it count if it's an Arab singer, but she or he is doing a cover of a Western song? Like "Feelings" or "I will always love you" or the Titanic song? I ask because each example seems like another degree away from being truly "Middle Eastern" -- in that wonderfully classic way that Hafez, Asmahan, Wahab, Om Kathoum, etc are/were. But then sometimes people who seem to capture that raw FOLK essence are viewed by some people as being too "western" to count as Middle Eastern. Like John Bilezikjian, Jalalladin Takesh, Chris Kalogerson, Saroyan, Kochak, Feenjon Group -- these guys have a sound that is OFTEN darn near identical to Aisha Ali's field recordings. They also have sometimes a jazzy sound, and a lot of them popularized more Turkish or Greek songs, AND they have more modern instruments -- but even with all that I have a hard time considering them less "Middle Eastern" than say, Diana Haddad. Does everybody have their own personal cutoff for what is and isn't "Middle Eastern" ? P.S. What if they're from some other culture, but are singing a cover of a Middle Eastern song? (I may be flamed for saying this, but my absolute favorite recording of "Habiba Ya Eini" is Haim Moshe's. He and his musicians really understand call and response, and that wonderful beledi sound.)