what do you consider to be damaging to the future of Middle Eastern dance? - Page 13

adiemus · 07-16-2008, 04:27 AM

Can this please be settled off this thread?^^^^^

To return to national differences, I do think it's nice to have an opportunity for students to play at getting all dressed up without stepping on 'performance toes'. I guess it's a matter of degree in many ways - who's to say wearing a scarf tied around the waist and skirt with a midriff top is a 'costume' or normal streetwear for some people? I'd wear this without a qualm in mid-summer and never think of it as costume! Of course if the midriff top was full beading and sequins, and the skirt was slit thigh-high and skin-tight, I'd be pushing my personal fashion boundaries a bit.

In case I'm misunderstood, I think at a 'performance' where people are being asked to present a dance for the appreciation of other people, then the usual rules for performance behaviour should apply - at the very least, having a solid cover-up for pre and post performance wear is appropriate. But at a relaxed affair where most of the audience will participate in some form or another, that sounds like an ideal opportunity to get out the bling and have a glitter-fit!

If I was attending someone else's performance and where I knew there would be after-match dancing - I'd be wearing comfortable clothing I can dance in, but no, no glitter or beading. But yes to a hipscarf probably. Not a coinbelt, way too noisy.

Isn't there a bit of a difference too between 'performance' and dancing for fun? After all, if bellydance's origins were among the folkloric and beledi types, wouldn't most of the people in the gathering also get up and dance, and then everyday wear with someone's tie or jacket tied around your waist might be as much costuming as you'd have!

jenc · 07-16-2008, 06:28 AM

Almost everyone I know dances for fun only. Those of us who want to improve to the stage where we be even remotely authentic are in the minority. For example, most of the class does not attend even local workshops, let alone try to attend workshops with respected national/international teachers. Dressing up seems to many to be what it is all about. HOWEVER if the teachers tried to insist on dedication, rules etc, there would be no classes to attend for those of us who are passionate about dance.
Lighten up everyone and get a grip!!!
We may be doing dreadful things in the name of ME dance in Clacton-on-Sea, but at least it mostly stays there!!

lizaj · 07-16-2008, 08:47 AM

[quote=jenc;79509]Almost everyone I know dances for fun only. Those of us who want to improve to the stage where we be even remotely authentic are in the minority. For example, most of the class does not attend even local workshops, let alone try to attend workshops with respected national/international teachers. Dressing up seems to many to be what it is all about. HOWEVER if the teachers tried to insist on dedication, rules etc, there would be no classes to attend for those of us who are passionate about dance.
Lighten up everyone and get a grip!!!
We may be doing dreadful things in the name of ME dance in Clacton-on-Sea, but at least it mostly stays there!![/QUOTE]

QUOTE OF THE WEEK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Caroline_afifi · 07-16-2008, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by khanjar

what do you consider to be damaging to the future of Middle Eastern dance?

Quote:

I was wondering we in the west are spouting what we believe to be the danger, but how do the people of the middle east see the problem, if there is a problem as they see it. From what I understand by reading the various site names on here and their stated location, most of us are of the Western world.

This is a very very tricky one. Depending on who you talk to with depend on everything! Dancing is not permitted in Islam and many take this piont of view. It is Haram for any man do do anything which is considered feminine so that usually includes dance which is percieved as being female. So this is one angle.

Dance is in Egypt still has a close relationship to prostitution and no matter what is considered a low class activity. Clothing is another issue and potentially they could go on and on...

Advice about music, styles, dancers and movies etc. may send your head spinning, getting into the politics will blow your mind. There is a love/hate relationship wiith dance and dancers in Egypt and in some parts of the Arab world it is just hate. I encounter all sorts of issues organising dance programmes for the Arab Arts festival. I actually carry on regardless as I believe I am confident enough to do so. I come up many brick walls and much of it from Arab women from Yemen and other countries.

I am being interviewed by MBC on Saturday and I am planning to tell the Arab world that there is a different scene of MED in the rest of the world.
Any advice anyone?? I mean that sincerely.

I would like to point out the positives of the global MED community.
I am also being interviewed for a French documentary on the same day discussing similar issues, but from a different point of view.

Quote:

Are there any here from the countries concerned, the Middle Eastern countries, how do they see the 'problem', after all ME dance is of the region they live.

If we are to engage in ME dance, we should be looking to the ME for guidance on trends etc, it is not our place, those of us in the west to dictate how things should be done or else we may be likened to our colonial ancestors.

If it is the wish of the west to go it's own way, perhaps the dance should be named ME style dance?

Well the last sentence has and will continue to be the eternal topic.
Wendy Buonaventura says... Middle Eastern inspired dance for her theatre pieces.

Kharis · 07-16-2008, 11:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

his is a very very tricky one. Depending on who you talk to with depend on everything! Dancing is not permitted in Islam and many take this piont of view. It is Haram for any man do do anything which is considered feminine so that usually includes dance which is percieved as being female. So this is one angle.

Dance is in Egypt still has a close relationship to prostitution and no matter what is considered a low class activity. Clothing is another issue and potentially they could go on and on...

Advice about music, styles, dancers and movies etc. may send your head spinning, getting into the politics will blow your mind. There is a love/hate relationship wiith dance and dancers in Egypt and in some parts of the Arab world it is just hate. I encounter all sorts of issues organising dance programmes for the Arab Arts festival. I actually carry on regardless as I believe I am confident enough to do so. I come up many brick walls and much of it from Arab women from Yemen and other countries.

And it is these contradictions and anomalies that are often confusing for Westerners. We're not Arabs and the way the dance is performed and viewed by us is usually totally different - obviously! We don't see it as being a low profession, something to be ashamed of, for us it's just a dance. That's not to say that the dance cannot be felt in the soul, or that it doesn't move us emotionally or spiritually. But it's still just a dance.
I'm not sure that dancing per se is forbidden by Islam, but surely it's more like dancing as a profession in public is forbidden as would any display that involves exposing your body and sexuality no matter how tastefully.

You and I both know that the Arab audiences in the UK mostly enjoy the dance and participate at events themselves with a good amount of gusto. When I visited nightclubs in Cairo, I saw the same thing. As westerners we have a lot of leeway, and if they think we're no better than prostitutes, it doesn't touch us at all.

There is a small faction of dancers in the UK who would rather 'put needles in their eyes than don a cabaret costume and dance in a restaurant". This is a direct quote. Well, that's their prerogative. But does it make the Arab community respect them more? Does the Arab community care? Are they bothered if we dress up at haflahs?
Does it make us more "authentic' or professional if we don't?

taheya · 07-16-2008, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kharis

And it is these contradictions and anomalies that are often confusing for Westerners. We're not Arabs and the way the dance is performed and viewed by us is usually totally different - obviously! We don't see it as being a low profession, something to be ashamed of, for us it's just a dance. That's not to say that the dance cannot be felt in the soul, or that it doesn't move us emotionally or spiritually. But it's still just a dance.
I'm not sure that dancing per se is forbidden by Islam, but surely it's more like dancing as a profession in public is forbidden as would any display that involves exposing your body and sexuality no matter how tastefully.

You and I both know that the Arab audiences in the UK mostly enjoy the dance and participate at events themselves with a good amount of gusto. When I visited nightclubs in Cairo, I saw the same thing. As westerners we have a lot of leeway, and if they think we're no better than prostitutes, it doesn't touch us at all.

There is a small faction of dancers in the UK who would rather 'put needles in their eyes than don a cabaret costume and dance in a restaurant". This is a direct quote. Well, that's their prerogative. But does it make the Arab community respect them more? Does the Arab community care? Are they bothered if we dress up at haflahs?
Does it make us more "authentic' or professional if we don't?

I think that as the Arab community has little or no respect for dancers in the first place then I am sure that not mingling or sitting in a restaurant in full bedlah is going to help improve the dance's reputation. Do arabs or anyone for that matter want to see people wandering around in full bedlah when they are not performing? At a hafla/ disco type set up it does look so naff if people are wearing full bedlah bopping around the dance floor IMO.
If people want to dance at a hafla then sure get dressed up but please dont wear a full flash costume to bop around the dance floor. Thats the time to wear hip belts or other sparklies but not a complete flash costume, do you know what I mean??

Aisha Azar · 07-16-2008, 01:59 PM

Dear Adeimus,

Quote:

Originally Posted by adiemus

Can this please be settled off this thread?^^^^^

.... I thought it HAD been settled.... am I missing something??

Quote:

To return to national differences, I do think it's nice to have an opportunity for students to play at getting all dressed up without stepping on 'performance toes'.

If anyone is performing, then it is not appropriate to be dressed as a dancer out in the audience, if the teacher is into teaching the students good performance manners. This is not a cultural matter, but an entertainment standard that holds all over the world. We belly dancers are one of the few groups that I know of who seem to have any problem with it. It not about an Arab or Muslim standard of behavior. It is about the standards set by almost all performing entities for their participants, both professional and amateur.

Quote:

I guess it's a matter of degree in many ways - who's to say wearing a scarf tied around the waist and skirt with a midriff top is a 'costume' or normal streetwear for some people?

It is for some people, but it rarely has the same connotation as belly dance, though some mistake it for "Gypsy".

Quote:

I'd wear this without a qualm in mid-summer and never think of it as costume! Of course if the midriff top was full beading and sequins, and the skirt was slit thigh-high and skin-tight, I'd be pushing my personal fashion boundaries a bit.

Out of respect for the performance aspect, I might choose to wear such an outfit some other time, than to take the attention off of the people on stage.

Quote:

In case I'm misunderstood, I think at a 'performance' where people are being asked to present a dance for the appreciation of other people, then the usual rules for performance behaviour should apply

-

But, is that not the performance anlge as true at hafla's as it is an any other kind of performance? And haflas are a golden opportunity for instructors to teach their students entertainment manners as well!
It seems that even at haflas, those who are presenting would want to be seen as performers, or what would be the point?

Quote:

at the very least, having a solid cover-up for pre and post performance wear is appropriate. But at a relaxed affair where most of the audience will participate in some form or another, that sounds like an ideal opportunity to get out the bling and have a glitter-fit!

Even when most of the audience is going to perform, it is still good manners to change into the costume before you perform, then back into street wear to be in the audience.

Quote:

If I was attending someone else's performance and where I knew there would be after-match dancing - I'd be wearing comfortable clothing I can dance in, but no, no glitter or beading. But yes to a hipscarf probably. Not a coinbelt, way too noisy.

What about carrying it in your purse or keeping it in the car or whatever until the guest dancing starts? Then you have it with you to use if you want, but have not created any kind of distraction from your fellow dancers while they are performing.

Quote:

Isn't there a bit of a difference too between 'performance' and dancing for fun?

Yes. But the thing is that haflas are usually sort of the belly dance equivalent of a recital. Students anxiously await their first performance with their group, or their first solo performance. Teachers are so thrilled to see their dancers do well on stage, etc. Since it is very much like a recital, a place in which new dancers cut their teeth and seasoned dancers get to dance in a more relaxed atmosphere, there is a lot of teaching going on as well, and entertainment ettiquette is one of the biggies.

Quote:

After all, if bellydance's origins were among the folkloric and beledi types, wouldn't most of the people in the gathering also get up and dance, and then everyday wear with someone's tie or jacket tied around your waist might be as much costuming as you'd have!

Yes, people got up and danced, and they still do, but usually they do not come all decked out in something that is going to pronounce all night long that they are a "dancer". Costuming was not thought about as costuming and still is not, in the professional entertainment sense, so no one shows up in anything that resembles bedlah. They show up in their street clothing and then somebody might or might not have something that becomes a hip wrap, and most people do not see it as a necessary tool for their enjoyment of dancing. I guess that alone is a big difference.

Regards,
A'isha

Shanazel · 07-16-2008, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Even when most of the audience is going to perform, it is still good manners to change into the costume before you perform, then back into street wear to be in the audience.

Boy, talk about a line at the bathroom

. I live in a place that is very informal (blue jeans are commonly worn to symphony concerts) and the places we hold haflas and rec center recitals have extremely limited dressing areas. At the rec center events, everyone from the baby ballerinas to the adult cloggers get dressed and wander out into the audience to watch everyone else so that the dancers who require multiple costume changes have room to get dressed. My students cover their costumes when they are in the audience, but that's about the best we manage, and our small haflas are at least half costume parties. But as in Clacton-on-Sea, what happens in Casper stays in Casper, and we all promise to conform to greenroom rules if we ever venture into the wider more sophisticated world.

Aisha Azar · 07-16-2008, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanazel

Boy, talk about a line at the bathroom

. I live in a place that is very informal (blue jeans are commonly worn to symphony concerts) and the places we hold haflas and rec center recitals have extremely limited dressing areas. At the rec center events, everyone from the baby ballerinas to the adult cloggers get dressed and wander out into the audience to watch everyone else so that the dancers who require multiple costume changes have room to get dressed. My students cover their costumes when they are in the audience, but that's about the best we manage, and our small haflas are at least half costume parties. But as in Clacton-on-Sea, what happens in Casper stays in Casper, and we all promise to conform to greenroom rules if we ever venture into the wider more sophisticated world.

Dear Shanazel,
I have danced under conditions where I was dressing in a closet with 8 other people before!! There is always a way if that is what you want to aim for. And, you never know who is going to show up where! Many years ago I was doing a show in Mountain Home, Idaho, and three Saudi guys walked into the lounge! I have no idea where they came from unless they were out at the Air Force base there to fly planes or something. You just never know and it is always best to be prepared.
In any case, people will think and do what they want and I am obviously not going to change anyone's mind.
People go to the Opera House here in their jeans, too. Why would they not wear that to a hafla, then, if its good enough for the symphony????? At least it is street clothing! I love to dress up pretty and like to wear more formal things when I go to anyplace that gives me half an opportunity, but I certainly would not attend the Opera in period costume, just as I would not go out into the audience at a dance event in my costume.
Regards,
A'isha

Aziyade · 07-16-2008, 03:01 PM

I love it! And here, what happens in the cornfields stays in the cornfields, and I too promise to act all right and proper when I go to the City.

LOL.

Our "dance parties" or haflas HERE are just that -- dance parties. We don't have a stage; we have usually the fellowship hall at a church, or somebody's back yard, or the YMCA gym. The first half of the hafla is show-and-tell. Students dance their solo numbers (in costume), the groups dance, the teachers dance, and we teach the kids in the room a simple debke. Then everybody gets out on the floor and jams. Maybe we teach a couple of combinations or something, and practice them to Hakim, but then we end the evening with some kind of "circle dance" where everyone claps, drums, plays zills, sings -- whatever -- and one or two dancers come in the center and improvise for a while, then they leave and bring another dancer in to the center, so everybody who wants to gets a chance to improv to the group vibe. It's all groovy. And because most of us also dance with a folk dance group, we end up teaching some Turkish folk dances and doing those until everyone collapses.

And yeah, we're all in costumes, or dressed up in some way, and we wear the costumes all night if we want (although most people end up ditching one part or another of their costume for some comfy skirts and a tank top.)

A show is another matter, and I make my darlings cover up when not on stage. UNLESS it's an outdoor show, and it's summer. I've learned the hard way that wearing a gallibiyah over a lycra costume when it's 101 degrees out -- AND after you've doused yourself with cornstarch to prevent sweating -- is NOT a good idea for very long.

I haven't read the whole thread, but do we REALLY think what's most damaging to the image of future of this dance is people running around in costumes???

I'd say what's most damaging is the serious lack of interest in the dance among younger Arabs, and the fact that so many American students are distancing themselves from Middle Eastern music.

07-16-2008, 04:27 AM	#121 (permalink)
adiemus Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Christchurch, New Zealand Posts: 977	Can this please be settled off this thread?^^^^^ To return to national differences, I do think it's nice to have an opportunity for students to play at getting all dressed up without stepping on 'performance toes'. I guess it's a matter of degree in many ways - who's to say wearing a scarf tied around the waist and skirt with a midriff top is a 'costume' or normal streetwear for some people? I'd wear this without a qualm in mid-summer and never think of it as costume! Of course if the midriff top was full beading and sequins, and the skirt was slit thigh-high and skin-tight, I'd be pushing my personal fashion boundaries a bit. In case I'm misunderstood, I think at a 'performance' where people are being asked to present a dance for the appreciation of other people, then the usual rules for performance behaviour should apply - at the very least, having a solid cover-up for pre and post performance wear is appropriate. But at a relaxed affair where most of the audience will participate in some form or another, that sounds like an ideal opportunity to get out the bling and have a glitter-fit! If I was attending someone else's performance and where I knew there would be after-match dancing - I'd be wearing comfortable clothing I can dance in, but no, no glitter or beading. But yes to a hipscarf probably. Not a coinbelt, way too noisy. Isn't there a bit of a difference too between 'performance' and dancing for fun? After all, if bellydance's origins were among the folkloric and beledi types, wouldn't most of the people in the gathering also get up and dance, and then everyday wear with someone's tie or jacket tied around your waist might be as much costuming as you'd have! __________________ He wahine, he taonga- Every woman is a treasure(Maori proverb)

07-16-2008, 06:28 AM	#122 (permalink)
jenc V.I.P. Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Colchester UK Posts: 1,023	Almost everyone I know dances for fun only. Those of us who want to improve to the stage where we be even remotely authentic are in the minority. For example, most of the class does not attend even local workshops, let alone try to attend workshops with respected national/international teachers. Dressing up seems to many to be what it is all about. HOWEVER if the teachers tried to insist on dedication, rules etc, there would be no classes to attend for those of us who are passionate about dance. Lighten up everyone and get a grip!!! We may be doing dreadful things in the name of ME dance in Clacton-on-Sea, but at least it mostly stays there!!

07-16-2008, 08:47 AM	#123 (permalink)
lizaj Moderator Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: UK Posts: 1,240	[quote=jenc;79509]Almost everyone I know dances for fun only. Those of us who want to improve to the stage where we be even remotely authentic are in the minority. For example, most of the class does not attend even local workshops, let alone try to attend workshops with respected national/international teachers. Dressing up seems to many to be what it is all about. HOWEVER if the teachers tried to insist on dedication, rules etc, there would be no classes to attend for those of us who are passionate about dance. Lighten up everyone and get a grip!!! We may be doing dreadful things in the name of ME dance in Clacton-on-Sea, but at least it mostly stays there!![/QUOTE] QUOTE OF THE WEEK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

07-16-2008, 03:01 PM	#130 (permalink)
Aziyade V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Cornfields of Evansville Indiana. Posts: 1,050	I love it! And here, what happens in the cornfields stays in the cornfields, and I too promise to act all right and proper when I go to the City. LOL. Our "dance parties" or haflas HERE are just that -- dance parties. We don't have a stage; we have usually the fellowship hall at a church, or somebody's back yard, or the YMCA gym. The first half of the hafla is show-and-tell. Students dance their solo numbers (in costume), the groups dance, the teachers dance, and we teach the kids in the room a simple debke. Then everybody gets out on the floor and jams. Maybe we teach a couple of combinations or something, and practice them to Hakim, but then we end the evening with some kind of "circle dance" where everyone claps, drums, plays zills, sings -- whatever -- and one or two dancers come in the center and improvise for a while, then they leave and bring another dancer in to the center, so everybody who wants to gets a chance to improv to the group vibe. It's all groovy. And because most of us also dance with a folk dance group, we end up teaching some Turkish folk dances and doing those until everyone collapses. And yeah, we're all in costumes, or dressed up in some way, and we wear the costumes all night if we want (although most people end up ditching one part or another of their costume for some comfy skirts and a tank top.) A show is another matter, and I make my darlings cover up when not on stage. UNLESS it's an outdoor show, and it's summer. I've learned the hard way that wearing a gallibiyah over a lycra costume when it's 101 degrees out -- AND after you've doused yourself with cornstarch to prevent sweating -- is NOT a good idea for very long. I haven't read the whole thread, but do we REALLY think what's most damaging to the image of future of this dance is people running around in costumes??? I'd say what's most damaging is the serious lack of interest in the dance among younger Arabs, and the fact that so many American students are distancing themselves from Middle Eastern music.