Aisha Azar

Dear Reen,


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Uhhh.... WHERE did I say that belly dance was for restaurants only?
Regards,
A'isha

khanjar

........Is there any reason why you think westerners should be less ethnocentric than anyone else?.........

No, my personal opinion as I wish to get on with people of other cultures, not dominate them with my county's views. Not forgetting a country's views might not be the view of that country, but that of a select few who are in positions of power and influence.

I reject the belief that because we are from the west, we are right, perhaps right as far as our own country is concerned, but not necessarily right when it comes to other countries.

__________________
I am a dream to some...and a nightmare to others.

Aisha Azar

Dear Khanjar,
Well, I think that holds true for most any situation. Unless you know literally hundreds of people within a system, you do not get the views of anyone but a select few! That includes belly dance and natives of countries of origin.


I also reject the view that because anyone is from a certain place, they are right. And, I reject the notion that I am whore because I belly dance, but that is the view of many a person in the Middle East.To most, it is a dance performed by sluts, even when they LIKE belly dance. However, I do recognize it as a notion that has a lot of truth in it, just as it it true here that actresses and actors do a lot of sleeping around sometime in order to claw their way to the middle of the pile. The "casting couch" is a legitimate issue in both fields. And,l we have to realize that just showing one's body, or moving in seductive ways is a form of prostitution in some countries ass well. Among poor dancers especially, they might have to do much more than dance to make a meager living.
Regards,
A'isha
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khanjar

I understand that is the view of those from those countries, and they are entitled to their own view in their country. But like I wish not for the western countries to dictate to other countries, it is again a two way street, they have not the right to come to the west and foist their opinions on us. They criticise from afar, fine if if it is in their own country.

Name calling, I have gone past that, jibes at homosexuality and effeminacy, I know I am not and that is all that matters, I will pursue what I wish.

Sleazy activities are not only confined to public entertainers, I mean, just look at our country's leaders and their often covert activities. Favours sexual or otherwise have long been a way to get to where one wants to be.

There is a difference in reasons for dancing, some dance because they like it and want to , others dance because they can and do so for a living, but I can see why all are lumped together,

__________________
I am a dream to some...and a nightmare to others.

Aisha Azar

Dear Khanjar,
I am not trying to be insulting here, though it may sound that way. I find the attitude of "The dance is what I choose to say it is" to be just a bit on the ethnocentiric, condescending side. It is as if the people do not know the meaning of their own dance. Dancers from places of origin, themselves may see it differently than the average citizen, but the fact is that in the long run,
it should be those dancers and the people native to the countries from which the dance comes and not us from the west who determine the dance's meaning and purpose. They do so within a cultural understanding that the rest of us have to spend the rest of our lives learning, so who are we to make any such decisions? It is our job to learn what the dance is from their point of view and to pass that information on to our students. If we decide to use a few Middle Eastern elements and make up our own dances, we need to take the responsiblity to say so very, very clearly.
As far as when dancers from the Middle East come to the West and tell us what their dance is about, they have EVERY right to foist their opinions off on us.
Regards,
A'isha

khanjar

I think we are both coming from different angles here, I am thinking about those who deem to criticise those who wish to dance, that is refer to dancers as whores etc,they are welcome to their criticism in their own countries, their way of life, their country. It is not for me to interfere with their country and it's ideas. If I go there, which is likely, I will mind my own business, if I disagree with something, then I will keep that to myself, simply because I am a guest in another's country.

Similarly, if a national of another country comes to the west and levies criticism based upon their own ideas, they are wrong, for it is not their country, they do not know it or it's people.

Now if a dancer comes from another country, perhaps the middle east, they may offer criticism of the dance they themselves know as a performer towards those who dance similarly in the west. They if they have an opinion, may relay that opinion, as I am sure western dancers would like to know as a means to improve their understanding.

Foisting opinions is fine for those involved, but not for those not involved.

I knew some Arabs once, they were guests in my country for educational purposes, I knew how they felt about western women and the way they dressed, that I understood, as it was alien to their own country aside from whores. I have seen non nationals in one of the middle eastern countries who were touting for business, so can understand where that premise came from.

The Western women these Arabian nationals came into contact with were not the whores the way they dressed, but upstanding people, which at first confused these guests, although at all times they maintained perfect honour, politeness and respect, they may have disagreed, but they kept it to themselves, as they understood their position as a guest in another's country, it was not for them to insult based upon ideas of their own culture.

Now you may say they were wealthy people, which they were, but I have also met the lowliest, a guard on an Omani museum, complete with bandoliers of bullets and an ancient rifle, he too was the same as the wealthy I knew, perfect politeness and respect. I did the best of my arabic, he did the best of his English, but we got on. I have a lot of respect for the people of the middle east, based upon those whom I have met.

In fact the only disrespect I ever had in the middle east was from an immigrant that chose to take exception to the fact that I wear long hair.Apparently, he took long haired men to be an indication of a drug user.

__________________
I am a dream to some...and a nightmare to others.

Aisha Azar

Dear Khanjar,
Yes, I have had the same argument about what I was wearing with a Saudi or two about what message the clothing I was wearing might be sending, when I used to work in one of the clubs in Seattle. I soon set them straight that this is America and I can wear out in public whatever the law allows and it is NOT a personal invitation to them to do anything more than look if it means that much to them.
When in Rome, do as the Romans do!!
Regards,
A'isha

Knitting Jo

To get back to the article itself though, I don't know if we should take it objectively. Obviously the decline of quality in ME Dance is not a good thing, but the article seems to be written for a certain kind of reader.
"Without an introduction she eases into her routine, gyrating her hips and rolling her stomach in slow, sensual motions, gradually raising the tempo with ever more daring and titillating movements of her thighs and torso." seems to be in introduction to an article about prostitutes or strippers. Yes, in many countries (western ones as well) Bellydancing is thought of as quite raunchy. That is untill most people actually see a performance( I would love to see a titillating hipdrop! ), but the article seems to written in such a way as to fuel these ideas rather than asay them as a lot of western articles that I have read.
Whether it was written in this way because it reflects the views of the average person in UAE or whether it was written in this way because controversy sells is open to debate.
DIna's responses seem to play right into the feeling of the article. Surely she isn't the only dancer left in the whole of Egypt! That is just silly. Someone of a cynical bent could even interpret her answers as a bit of advertising - "Come see Egypt's last bellydancer - she incites young men to rioting!"
As for my personal taste I think a return to more modest costumes (not full cover ups but a bit more covered) could even be a good thing as hot young things would have to rely on more than just cleavage to be famous.

gypsy8522

There isn't a "average person in the UAE", native people are a minority that make up approximately 15 percent of the population and the rest are non-citizens. Could it be that the article was written this way because it reflects the point of view of the **journalist** who wrote it?

I am also pretty sure there is someone else (a native speaker) who reads and checks the article before it gets published. The editor in chief has got to be a native english speaker.

[quote]She's the only dancer left in the whole of Egypt who is a famous celebrity! There are certainly other dancers, who may be famous -to other dancers that is, but if they walk down the street nobody from the non-dancing population is going to recognize them.

While I think her response is valid, I don't quite agree with the reasons she is giving. Here's what I think, and what I'm about write I have actually said ages ago, this is also a response to Tarik's comment above.

I apologize- this is going to be long.

The days of famous belly dancers like Tahia Carioca, Suheir Zaki, or even Dina are over. In my opinion no dancer is ever going to reach that kind of fame again. We are a different generation now, as the world around us has changed our ways of thinking and interests have changed as well. None of my Arabic friends (in their 20's) would be interested in wasting their weekend to go watch a two hour belly dancing show! That may have been the ultimate pastime of any young person decades ago (ie my parents generation), but tastes have changed A LOT over the 21st century. The advancement in digital technology and the boom of satelite channels over the past 9 years has given us other alternatives. My dad told me that when he was a kid he would go to the cinema just to see the artists he loves, since there was no television around that time. That is how legends such as Tahia and Samia used the cinema to reach their audiences. I am sure there were many good dancers during that time, but these were the lucky ones who made it on the silver screen and therefore became known to the rest of the Arab world. However, today we don't need that anymore. There is a TV set in every home, and during the past 8 years we have seen new channels pop all over the place, we are no longer forced to watch government generated channels either. That is why you see many belly dancers who can't sing a note making "music videos" just to promote themselves. One of them is Boosy Samir (yes, she actually used to be a belly dancer!), Lucy, Dina, Samara.. and lastly Bassema, the trashy dancer from Lebanon that was mentioned in another thread. There are many others who come out then disappear like bubbles, but names are escaping me right now. Shams, the dancer from Nile Group festival, I remember she came out with a video a few years ago.

If you look at the dancers today, in Egypt and around the world, they're all dancing to Om Kalthoum and songs from previous decades. In the past every generation of dancers had their own genre of music that represents them, it was not just a dancer movng her body to taped music infront of other fellow dancers and that's it. It was the whole artistic process, the musicians, the song writers, composers and of course when you have a great dancer to complete the line up of artists, in return you are going to get an appreciative audience from different levels of society and from all walks of life. I think what makes Suheir Zaki in many people's eyes the best dancer to ever dance to Om Kalthoum's music, it's not that she's "the best" but that was "her" generation. She has lived and danced during those times, we call it the generation of tarab, it's a point in Arabic music history that won't come back. That is why she too has become a part of that history. Honestly, I get so confused when I watch the so called belly dancers of today, and I feel that the music isn't helping much either.

In a recent TV interview with Nagua Fouad she was asked if the days of raqs sharqi will ever return, she said "No, because now there's that darn playback microphone" lol. I thought her answer was funny and soooo true. A good example would be the likes of Nancy Ajram, Ruby, Haifa etc.. they have medicore voices (except for Haifa, her singing isn't even suitable for the shower), they keep dancing around on stage and sometimes they wear costumes that Dina can't get away with. Eileen Khalaf's concert was braodcast on the Egyptian channel a few years ago, and I sworn it was a belly dancing outfit she was wearing.. the audience turnout was like 5,000 people. Ironically, no belly dancer is allowed to appear in a concert on Egyptian TV.

These happen to be one of the "alternatives" I was talking about. Until very recently we had the REAL female singers who would stand still the whole time while they enchant us with their beautiful voice, and we had the belly dancer who would entertain us with her body.. every person had a specific job and they knew not to highjack another artist's profession which they are not qualified for. Today it is a salad, you hire any of the artists I mentioned above, you get a beautiful woman that can sing, dance, wear the raunchiest costume followed by the biggest controvery (where'd you think Dina got the idea from?)... it's like a 3 in 1 deal. And these women do not accept anything less than 20,000 dollars for a private party, so obviously it is much better for them than to become a dancer, which brings us to another contemporary thing... technological changes and all this commercialization has made the entertainment industry all about making profit. Art is used as a tool, it is not the end result.

Ok, I'm tired from typing. I'll be back later.

to be continued....

deanna

Dear Knitting Jo,
That's interesting that you read the article that way. I didn't get such a negative connotation from it. This may or may not be germane here, but I've been a journalist for many years and I've encountered many readers who accuse journalists of injecting personal bias into their stories. Honestly, that doesn't happen nearly as much as people might think. Most of the time, stories are written by people who are putting stories together on a short deadline and the subtle nuances of words chosen in haste escape them. In describing Dina in motion, I think the writer was trying to be lyrical and paint a picture with the words. A person who isn't very familiar with the dance would not realize how cliched and derogatory it was. I realize I'm giving the writer the benefit of the doubt here, but I prefer to assume the best instead of the worst...