Dina worries about the future of belly dancing in Egypt - Page 2

Reen.Blom · 07-02-2008, 01:38 PM

But dont you think the 'mainstreaming' can be used to its advantage? However changed, ballroom does not seem to be dying out...LOL ( As for being a sport, in Estern Europe it has been considered sport for decades, and dancers' ballet basics is a must, yet it is not THAT commercialized, and to learn decent trainers look up to the sourse. Another concern here, that SURELY a chinese or Eastern European will interpret the dance through THEIR understanding of the culture, much different than say latin American, and that's inevitable)

Anyhow, I find it a very good point that Tarik made about the costumes (makes me smile to see Dina complain about costumes)...

Is there a way for the dance to be lifted to a concert hall stage (im not just talking about BDSS) and the costuming more appropriate for stage than a night club. I really cant judge about Egyptian scene, but talking in general, can we find a role model who would promote dance as an ART, not just entertainment for the rich(come one you dont go to listen to Mozart while eating at a restaurant...lol) And still keeping the decent level of research and training, cleaned up from all that goddess-pagan-fertility stuff which must have sprung as a reaction to "harem" fantasy....

Aisha Azar · 07-02-2008, 02:05 PM

Dear Reen,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reen.Blom

But dont you think the 'mainstreaming' can be used to its advantage? However changed, ballroom does not seem to be dying out...LOL ( As for being a sport, in Estern Europe it has been considered sport for decades, and dancers' ballet basics is a must, yet it is not THAT commercialized, and to learn decent trainers look up to the sourse. Another concern here, that SURELY a chinese or Eastern European will interpret the dance through THEIR understanding of the culture, much different than say latin American, and that's inevitable)

I would have to say that belly dance is its own unique case in that we have been led to believe that "anyone can do it; its just shaking your body". that is not the same sort of stigma that any other dance form has had to face. In the process of "mainstreaming" this particular dance, the complexity and integrity of the dance has been sacrificed. By the way, I have heard hula and ballroom dancers say the same thing about some of their dances. Not to the extent that it has happened in Middle Eastern dance, however. At least, to my understanding, Haouli sort of implies bastardization!

Quote:

Anyhow, I find it a very good point that Tarik made about the costumes (makes me smile to see Dina complain about costumes)...

Quote:

Is there a way for the dance to be lifted to a concert hall stage (im not just talking about BDSS) and the costuming more appropriate for stage than a night club. I really cant judge about Egyptian scene, but talking in general, can we find a role model who would promote dance as an ART, not just entertainment for the rich(come one you dont go to listen to Mozart while eating at a restaurant...lol) And still keeping the decent level of research and training, cleaned up from all that goddess-pagan-fertility stuff which must have sprung as a reaction to "harem" fantasy....

This dance is about an intimacy between the audience and the dancer that does not translate very well from the concert stage, and it gives the dance a formalization that was never intended. The costuming is only part of the story in countries of origin, not the whole story. Dancers have been looked down on in countries of origin long before the development of belly dance, and for many of the same reasons.
Serious dancers are already promoting the dance as an art, but that does not mean we have to leave behind its sexual attributes, either. Art can be very sexy and still have class. Oh, and we have a group of dancers who are already dancing very covered up. They practice the Hilal Method. Go and watch a video or two. I would be interested to see what everyone thinks of them.?

Regards,
A'isha

khanjar · 07-02-2008, 02:50 PM

Ok, why not in the west do dancers not start adopting a more conservative approach to the dance in their costume, perhaps move towards how it was in the past as a folk dance in Egypt, i.e. dance covered up.

What the media industry has done in the west has brought us this dance, but it was wrong in the way the dance was portrayed, perhaps even insulting to the originating countries. Given that most western ME dancers know the history, and where it is wrong, they should be ok with doing things the right way, now they know there is a right way.

From what I would like to understand is ME dance is about dance, not the appearance of the dancer. If dancers danced covered, this would weed out the people that see ME dance as an ogle fest and perhaps if the west is seen to be covering up, this might send better signals to the originating countries, and they might be a little more lenient, in that it might stimulate more of an interest, because it does not insult religious beliefs too much.

Public dance I do understand is a no no with certain religious beliefs, but there are different levels of those beliefs, as has been demonstrated in the past. Human nature usually is effective at leveling ideas, balancing things out, Lanes book is very helpful in showing the balance that existed before, in one originating country.

Though I have no plans to do this, as I am essentially a very private person, if it ever came to myself being on an acceptable level as to dance publicly and I had overcome my confidence issues, it would not my interest to be part of a flesh fest, and I would research a suitable costume to suit my requirements. To dance, is my interest for me, not my wish to entertain others, they don't like it, they can continue to fiddle with their cell phones.

khanjar · 07-02-2008, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aisha Azar

Dear Reen,

This dance is about an intimacy between the audience and the dancer that does not translate very well from the concert stage, and it gives the dance a formalization that was never intended. The costuming is only part of the story in countries of origin, not the whole story. Dancers have been looked down on in countries of origin long before the development of belly dance, and for many of the same reasons.
Serious dancers are already promoting the dance as an art, but that does not mean we have to leave behind its sexual attributes, either. Art can be very sexy and still have class. Oh, and we have a group of dancers who are already dancing very covered up. They practice the Hilal Method. Go and watch a video or two. I would be interested to see what everyone thinks of them.?

Regards,
A'isha

Oh, I wholeheartedly agree, I am an artist in metalwork and I understand the psychology of art and there I know it is not the blatantly obvious sexual art that is beautiful, but often the message a piece of art sends. With the dance, it an art form, a message can be sent to the viewer, which is a private message that every viewer understands in their own personal way. Being blatant has the effect to repel some people.

For example, yesterday I was speaking with a ceramicist who was stuck with the direction their art should go from a sales point of view. They had thought to create more sexualized pieces, as sex sells. My ideas to them were you can create something which whilst not obvious, is suggestive, that is more likely to sell, as the message being sent is a personal thing. Many people, perhaps the majority wish not to be open with their personal interests, and prefer to let the mind see what they want to see.

Dance to me, it is about the movement, not the flesh, it is the movement which I find the attraction. I see the message in the movement, so covered up dancing, is welcome to me, as I see beyond the obvious in a lot of arts.

Aisha Azar · 07-02-2008, 03:31 PM

Dear Khanjar,

Quote:

Originally Posted by khanjar

Ok, why not in the west do dancers not start adopting a more conservative approach to the dance in their costume, perhaps move towards how it was in the past as a folk dance in Egypt, i.e. dance covered up.

Why would we want to do that? It does not come across well with Hilal and company, in my personal opinion. There is a certain something lacking. The dance is not about conservative, and I am not sure why some westerners insist that it is something that it is not. It is making a whole other kind of social statement!

Quote:

What the media industry has done in the west has brought us this dance, but it was wrong in the way the dance was portrayed, perhaps even insulting to the originating countries. Given that most western ME dancers know the history, and where it is wrong, they should be ok with doing things the right way, now they know there is a right way.

Actually, when the dance came to the West, it had the exact same message it had in countries of origin and still does. "Naughty, scandalous, publicly sexual". It was not "wrong" in the way it was portrayed. It is just that many dancers in the West can not live comfortably with that image and so they strive to make a new one for the dance. This does not mean that the dance has no depth or integrity, but that integrity depends partly on having an understanding of the dance from a specifically cultural point of view. Dancers themselves understand how the public looks at them in countries of origin. Part of their attitude is radical and revolutionary, and this is more true of he wealthy and famous dancers than it is poor ones. They understand and accept that they work outside the norm, and have the chance to glory in that freedom.

Quote:

From what I would like to understand is ME dance is about dance, not the appearance of the dancer. If dancers danced covered, this would weed out the people that see ME dance as an ogle fest and perhaps if the west is seen to be covering up, this might send better signals to the originating countries, and they might be a little more lenient, in that it might stimulate more of an interest, because it does not insult religious beliefs too much.

Costuming is a dance tool, just as music, movement,venue,general appearance and many other elements are. This dance is best shown off in clothing that hugs the body, or clothing that in some other way accentuates the body. There are movements in the true dance that are subtle enough so that they are not seen when all covered up in loose fitting garments. Also, if people want to do the dance, they have to expect a certain amount of sexual backlash. The dance IS sexual and the costume is meant to accentuate those subtle signals. Now, this does not mean that some people do not costume over the top, but there is no need for the rest of us to freak out and start dressing like nuns because of a few radical costumers. Most of us can dress ourselves quite nicely, thank you. I am not interested in the opinions of people who view belly dance only as an ogle fest anyway and I do not see any need to cater to their opinions one way or the other. I will neither dress nor undress for THEM!

Quote:

Public dance I do understand is a no no with certain religious beliefs, but there are different levels of those beliefs, as has been demonstrated in the past. Human nature usually is effective at leveling ideas, balancing things out, Lanes book is very helpful in showing the balance that existed before, in one originating country.

I am not sure that's true in the way you are thinking. Public dancing girls were scandalous then as belly dancers are now. There was no level or balance. it is just that Lane was not as prejudiced as many people in his reporting.

Quote:

Though I have no plans to do this, as I am essentially a very private person, if it ever came to myself being on an acceptable level as to dance publicly and I had overcome my confidence issues, it would not my interest to be part of a flesh fest, and I would research a suitable costume to suit my requirements. To dance, is my interest for me, not my wish to entertain others, they don't like it, they can continue to fiddle with their cell phones.

If you have no wish to entertain others, then I would recommend that you do not dance in public. The dance IS a form of entertainment and that means that if you get up in front of other people to do it, then it is your job to entertain them.

Regards,
A'isha

Reen.Blom · 07-02-2008, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by khanjar

Ok, why not in the west do dancers not start adopting a more conservative approach to the dance in their costume, perhaps move towards how it was in the past as a folk dance in Egypt, i.e. dance covered up.

What the media industry has done in the west has brought us this dance, but it was wrong in the way the dance was portrayed, perhaps even insulting to the originating countries. Given that most western ME dancers know the history, and where it is wrong, they should be ok with doing things the right way, now they know there is a right way.

From what I would like to understand is ME dance is about dance, not the appearance of the dancer. If dancers danced covered, this would weed out the people that see ME dance as an ogle fest and perhaps if the west is seen to be covering up, this might send better signals to the originating countries, and they might be a little more lenient, in that it might stimulate more of an interest, because it does not insult religious beliefs too much.

Public dance I do understand is a no no with certain religious beliefs, but there are different levels of those beliefs, as has been demonstrated in the past. Human nature usually is effective at leveling ideas, balancing things out, Lanes book is very helpful in showing the balance that existed before, in one originating country.

Though I have no plans to do this, as I am essentially a very private person, if it ever came to myself being on an acceptable level as to dance publicly and I had overcome my confidence issues, it would not my interest to be part of a flesh fest, and I would research a suitable costume to suit my requirements. To dance, is my interest for me, not my wish to entertain others, they don't like it, they can continue to fiddle with their cell phones.

That's a very interesting idea, since the 2 piece costume is a Hollywood invention.... That's exactly what I mean about "mainstreaming" as I think dancers who care about the dance should be careful about the way they present it, so why not use mainstreaming as promoting a better standards??? As for "anyone can do it thing" I agree that not anyone can become a professional, but learning to dance for fun...frankly I have more chances with bellydance than with ballet! And although I might learn to play a couple of tunes on the piano its not to say Im gonna give vituoso concerts! As for stage... well... tastes differ I have seen it done on stage and frankly with the right sound and lighting - it is almost like going to opera!

Aisha Azar · 07-02-2008, 03:53 PM

Dear Reen,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reen.Blom

That's a very interesting idea, since the 2 piece costume is a Hollywood invention....

I think there are several opinions about the origin of the costume that do not agree with the Hollywood suggestion.

Quote:

That's exactly what I mean about "mainstreaming" as I think dancers who care about the dance should be careful about the way they present it, so why not use mainstreaming as promoting a better standards???

Can you define what you mean as "mainstreaming" here? I may not be understanding what you mean exactly. I see the dance as pretty much mainstreamed already, since you can see it at any county fair, on the large stage, in restaurants and lounges and sleazy bars, in movies, at parties, etc.

Quote:

As for "anyone can do it thing" I agree that not anyone can become a professional, but learning to dance for fun...frankly I have more chances with bellydance than with ballet!

I see the dance as every bit as difficult as ballet...... I agree that everyone can learn to do it for fun, but that the dancer who is learning for fun only ought not to be confused with the professional dancer, which is one of our main issues currently.

Quote:

And although I might learn to play a couple of tunes on the piano its not to say Im gonna give vituoso concerts! As for stage... well... tastes differ I have seen it done on stage and frankly with the right sound and lighting - it is almost like going to opera!

I agree that the dance can be presented on stage and can be spectacular. But often that intimate connection with the audience is sacrificed. I believe that Jihad Racy referred to the musical equivalent as "Sultana". My opinion is that for the dance to be its most effective, that is a very important part of the mix. This rarely happens on the big stage in the same way it does in a more intimate and cozy venue.
Regards,
A'isha

khanjar · 07-02-2008, 04:18 PM

Perhaps then it is to analyse what are the problems as it is seen in Egypt, what exactly is the problem.

If it is religion, I can see the problems there, but a compromise can be had, most people will go for compromise despite what the hard liners say.

I see part of our purpose in the developed west is to listen to what other parts of the world are saying and there we have a choice, we can show them we are listening and trying despite our differences to accommodate, or we can go our own way and leave them to it. Personally I seek the former as I see the latter as negative and not the way forward for a world so far developed in other areas.

As to the information revolution, the Global Village, we can now with ease talk with anyone in any part of the world so equipped with communication technology, I would like to see that socially as well, a world despite our different cultures, we can get on and differences, we can arrive at a compromise or at least make continued efforts towards it in the form of understanding.

Despite western superiority mentality, I am no better nor worse than anyone else of any other nationality, my country's history of conquest and colonialism has taught me that, as it is not nice for past reputations to proceed a person.

Reen.Blom · 07-02-2008, 05:04 PM

Yet everyone seems to comlain what the OTHERs are doing to the dance and how bad it is that it is 'mainstreamed' that way- eg at ren fairs etc. My thought is that it should not be rected but used to bring up the standards costuming included.<br><br>

Well suppose everyone has their approach- i would not attempt ballet, neither would my overweight middle aged neighbour, yet both of us enjoy bellydancing!<br><br>

So Aisha you want to say that Bellydance is for restaurant only? Well maybe an example of Egyptian style by Dina - yes, what about AmCam with Isis wings? Hardlyfor small stage...

Aisha Azar · 07-02-2008, 05:04 PM

Dear Khanjar,

Quote:

Originally Posted by khanjar

Perhaps then it is to analyse what are the problems as it is seen in Egypt, what exactly is the problem.

I had such a conversation with a Egyptian doctor of very high social standing when I was in Egypt. He sees the problems of Egypt the result of extremes in social, financial, political standing of the citizens of the country. In other words, the negation of a strong middle class is what he sees as the root of most of Egypt's problems. The other thing to think about is that most people, would not consider their outlook on belly dance to be a "problem" as such.

Most people, either in or out of countries of origin, probably do not give belly dancers a second thought. It is only we belly dancers who think we are so important as to care about it that much.

Quote:

If it is religion, I can see the problems there, but a compromise can be had, most people will go for compromise despite what the hard liners say.

HAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Most religious groups are not known for their wonderful abilities to compromise!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! As far as the average person goes, I think no matter what the religion, people tend to "compromise in their own favor more than thinking to make an egalitarian compromise.

Quote:

I see part of our purpose in the developed west is to listen to what other parts of the world are saying and there we have a choice, we can show them we are listening and trying despite our differences to accommodate, or we can go our own way and leave them to it. Personally I seek the former as I see the latter as negative and not the way forward for a world so far developed in other areas.

Is there any reason why you think westerners should be less ethnocentric than anyone else? As a whole the world is ethnocentric and pretty much feels their way is the best way, and this can be seen in action every time a country gets any power. They immediately go out and try to make some other country submissive. There are some few individuals who are able, under some circumstances, to step out of their own way of life and really LOOK and FEEL for the other guy. As a dancer and as a person, I think I have some real feeling for certain cultures within the Middle East, especially for Egyptian and Saudi/Gulf culture. However, this is one example of my own ethnocentricity even as a person who is empathic for those from those cultures. While in downtown Cairo, I bought some ice cream made of water buffalo milk. It was a little too sweet for my taste so I wanted to throw it away. Now, let us keep in mind that Cairo's non-tourist areas are very full of litter and garbage, but could I just throw that cup of ice cream on the ground along with all the other litter that was there? NO, I COULD NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. I actually felt a moment of panic trying to decide what to do with it, because, being a well trained American means that we do not litter, no matter what! I finally put it down on top of a green box that was outside one of the stores. It was snatched up and enjoyed by a beggar kid, so all was well that ended well. Then HE could throw the cup on the ground and I was absolved of all ethnocentric responsibility.

Quote:

As to the information revolution, the Global Village, we can now with ease talk with anyone in any part of the world so equipped with communication technology, I would like to see that socially as well, a world despite our different cultures, we can get on and differences, we can arrive at a compromise or at least make continued efforts towards it in the form of understanding.

Information technology is a luxury, not a necessity and you would be amazed at how many people do not have it.....If you can;t feed your family, chances of having a computer or knowing how to use it are pretty slim.

Quote:

Despite western superiority mentality, I am no better nor worse than anyone else of any other nationality, my country's history of conquest and colonialism has taught me that, as it is not nice for past reputations to proceed a person.

True, but the fact is that reputations do go before us, just as reputation go before the people of the Middle East. Just ask anyone who has been accused of being a terrorist just because they are from Iraq. It is a two way street.
Regards,
A'isha

07-02-2008, 01:38 PM	#11 (permalink)
Reen.Blom V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: SA now UK(Newmarket) Posts: 2,251	But dont you think the 'mainstreaming' can be used to its advantage? However changed, ballroom does not seem to be dying out...LOL ( As for being a sport, in Estern Europe it has been considered sport for decades, and dancers' ballet basics is a must, yet it is not THAT commercialized, and to learn decent trainers look up to the sourse. Another concern here, that SURELY a chinese or Eastern European will interpret the dance through THEIR understanding of the culture, much different than say latin American, and that's inevitable) Anyhow, I find it a very good point that Tarik made about the costumes (makes me smile to see Dina complain about costumes)... Is there a way for the dance to be lifted to a concert hall stage (im not just talking about BDSS) and the costuming more appropriate for stage than a night club. I really cant judge about Egyptian scene, but talking in general, can we find a role model who would promote dance as an ART, not just entertainment for the rich(come one you dont go to listen to Mozart while eating at a restaurant...lol) And still keeping the decent level of research and training, cleaned up from all that goddess-pagan-fertility stuff which must have sprung as a reaction to "harem" fantasy.... __________________ Join WORLD BELLY DANCE DAY! www.worldbellydanceday.com

07-02-2008, 02:50 PM	#13 (permalink)
khanjar Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: UK Posts: 292	Ok, why not in the west do dancers not start adopting a more conservative approach to the dance in their costume, perhaps move towards how it was in the past as a folk dance in Egypt, i.e. dance covered up. What the media industry has done in the west has brought us this dance, but it was wrong in the way the dance was portrayed, perhaps even insulting to the originating countries. Given that most western ME dancers know the history, and where it is wrong, they should be ok with doing things the right way, now they know there is a right way. From what I would like to understand is ME dance is about dance, not the appearance of the dancer. If dancers danced covered, this would weed out the people that see ME dance as an ogle fest and perhaps if the west is seen to be covering up, this might send better signals to the originating countries, and they might be a little more lenient, in that it might stimulate more of an interest, because it does not insult religious beliefs too much. Public dance I do understand is a no no with certain religious beliefs, but there are different levels of those beliefs, as has been demonstrated in the past. Human nature usually is effective at leveling ideas, balancing things out, Lanes book is very helpful in showing the balance that existed before, in one originating country. Though I have no plans to do this, as I am essentially a very private person, if it ever came to myself being on an acceptable level as to dance publicly and I had overcome my confidence issues, it would not my interest to be part of a flesh fest, and I would research a suitable costume to suit my requirements. To dance, is my interest for me, not my wish to entertain others, they don't like it, they can continue to fiddle with their cell phones. __________________ I am a dream to some...and a nightmare to others.

07-02-2008, 04:18 PM	#18 (permalink)
khanjar Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: UK Posts: 292	Perhaps then it is to analyse what are the problems as it is seen in Egypt, what exactly is the problem. If it is religion, I can see the problems there, but a compromise can be had, most people will go for compromise despite what the hard liners say. I see part of our purpose in the developed west is to listen to what other parts of the world are saying and there we have a choice, we can show them we are listening and trying despite our differences to accommodate, or we can go our own way and leave them to it. Personally I seek the former as I see the latter as negative and not the way forward for a world so far developed in other areas. As to the information revolution, the Global Village, we can now with ease talk with anyone in any part of the world so equipped with communication technology, I would like to see that socially as well, a world despite our different cultures, we can get on and differences, we can arrive at a compromise or at least make continued efforts towards it in the form of understanding. Despite western superiority mentality, I am no better nor worse than anyone else of any other nationality, my country's history of conquest and colonialism has taught me that, as it is not nice for past reputations to proceed a person. __________________ I am a dream to some...and a nightmare to others.

07-02-2008, 05:04 PM	#19 (permalink)
Reen.Blom V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: SA now UK(Newmarket) Posts: 2,251	Yet everyone seems to comlain what the OTHERs are doing to the dance and how bad it is that it is 'mainstreamed' that way- eg at ren fairs etc. My thought is that it should not be rected but used to bring up the standards costuming included.<br><br> Well suppose everyone has their approach- i would not attempt ballet, neither would my overweight middle aged neighbour, yet both of us enjoy bellydancing!<br><br> So Aisha you want to say that Bellydance is for restaurant only? Well maybe an example of Egyptian style by Dina - yes, what about AmCam with Isis wings? Hardlyfor small stage... __________________ Join WORLD BELLY DANCE DAY! www.worldbellydanceday.com