Sensitive topic: Female Circumcision in Egypt - Page 3

da Sage · 05-30-2008, 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

Dear daSage,

The family that I was discussing is middle class, and according to several articles I read, the practice was a "trend" if you will, in the States, though not as common of course as male circumcision. It does not seem to have been something that just happened in the wealthier families, but then medical costs were not so outrageous then as they are now. It was done for several reasons, only one being a larger clitoris. One M.D. opinion in a practitioner magazine from the 1950s was that females need to be circumsized for the same reasons males do; "hygiene", which is of course, nonsense. I think I read that the practice of circumsizing females was made illegal in the 1970s, though don't quote me on the date. It probably was practiced all over the U.S., though some areas probably more than others. There was one article that I could not get into that specifically discussed the practice in the state of Alabama. I did not find any on any other specific states. This does not mean that they don't exist, but only that this was the only one I found.
It seems at every turn when we find something to point out as hideously wrong that happens someplace else, as soon as we look closely, we can find the same thing here! Talk about living in a glass house..... This does not make any of it alright, but I think we need to realize that we are as culpable in most crimes against the heart and soul and body, as any other country. At least in this case we have made strides in fixing the problem of female cirumcision. Now we need to get to work on male circumcision!! By the way, folks, female circumcision is illegal in many North African countries including Egypt. The practice still continues and I bet it is still going on here in some places, too.
Regards,
A'isha

If your sources say it was a trend in the States, it's rather a leap to pick out the South as a place where it was particularly common. An apology would be appropriate and appreciated, but I am used to you responding to any criticism with a response that we are at fault, along with our American culture and our country's policies.

Now, where is my hairshirt and lash?

Aisha Azar · 05-30-2008, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by da Sage

If your sources say it was a trend in the States, it's rather a leap to pick out the South as a place where it was particularly common. An apology would be appropriate and appreciated, but I am used to you responding to any criticism with a response that we are at fault, along with our American culture and our country's policies.

Now, where is my hairshirt and lash?

I believe I already DID apologize twice, but then, you have your own issues and may not be able to see that. As I have already explained SEVERAL times, and apparently you can not read what I say because of your preconceived notions about who I am, I mentioned the south because the two situations with which I had any experience about actual cases involving female circumcision happened in the south. If one person tells me about two instances in her own family that is saying something. You can think I am as nasty as you choose, but that does not change who I really am, and in further study, who you are.
As for America, I live here, I am a citizen and I have every right to criticize when I feel that we are doing something wrong. You choose to overlook the times when I have been critical of the policies of other governments, or defended the American people. At least I have no fear of looking in my own back yard and trying to see that we are not as squeaky clean as we would like the rest of the world to believe.

da Sage · 05-30-2008, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A'isha Azar

I believe I already DID apologize twice, but then, you have your own issues and may not be able to see that. As I have already explained SEVERAL times, and apparently you can not read what I say because of your preconceived notions about who I am, I mentioned the south because the two situations with which I had any experience about actual cases involving female circumcision happened in the south. If one person tells me about two instances in her own family that is saying something. You can think I am as nasty as you choose, but that does not change who I really am, and in further study, who you are.
As for America, I live here, I am a citizen and I have every right to criticize when I feel that we are doing something wrong. You choose to overlook the times when I have been critical of the policies of other governments, or defended the American people. At least I have no fear of looking in my own back yard and trying to see that we are not as squeaky clean as we would like the rest of the world to believe.

I fail to see what your lapse in logic has to do with the Bad Things in American Government and Society. I'm actually quite aware, and quite critical of many of those Bad Things (and moderately active to keep them in check), but I don't see what they have to do with your unfortunate citation as to which part of the country female circumcision was "not uncommon" in.

I think your segue was ill-timed and bizarre.

EDIT: Also, re: "If one person tells me about two instances in her own family that is saying something."
Yes...it means you have only encountered one long-term American family which practiced this. How bizarre that both instances (within the same family) happened in the same geographical area! That must say more about the region, than the family.

khanjar · 05-30-2008, 10:03 PM

I have very strong feelings on the subject of circumcision, in that I believe the mutilation of either gender without the person's consent is abuse. Never mind all this parent thing until the age of whatever, my view is who is anyone to sanction the mutilation of another person's body without their consent.

Circumcision of males for medical reasons,If there were ever any real reasons, now there are alternatives, steroids and such.

Female circumcision in parts of Africa, is sadly a traditional thing, often carried out with no anaesthetic and in the unclean conditions of a hut floor with an unsterilised knife leaving the victim open to all kinds of infection and complications beyond. Such is my feeling about this mutilation, I have in the past sponsored a program in Kenya to educate and eradicate the tradition.

Whether it is true or not about dancers who have been circumcised expressing their rage through dance, if they are doing so, I can very well believe it, and understand. If this is undesireable to express anger in dance because of what has happened to the dancer, may it help towards stopping it happening to others.

Yasmine Bint Al Nubia · 05-30-2008, 10:31 PM

Does it matter if we find female circumcision abhorrent? What does it change? This practice is thousands of years old and continues right up to the point it became known through Western media. Male circumcision occurs right in the hospital, beyond the awareness of the parents and yet that practice continues.My point is that we are judging a practice from a pedestal of cultural superiority! We call it mutilation, what do the native women call it? Do we care enough to ask the question and listen unbiasedly for the answer? Yes, we can express our feelings about the subject, but in the end, that's all we can do.

Now how it relates to the dance is supposition,without the presence cold hard facts. Is it assumed from a Western psychological POV, that a woman would react with anger. But what if it's something else entirely? Maybe dance allows women to alleviate subconscious anger,frustration and hopelesness.

Tarik Sultan · 05-30-2008, 10:45 PM

Female and male circumcision is not a recent practice. Its thousands of years old. Its found in Africa all across Africa from East to West Africa, although I don't think it is practiced in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia or Libya. Given the geographic region of the practice It most likely came into Egypt when the original inhabitants migrated into the Nile Valley from East Africa.

With regards to the dance, its neither here nor there. Seeing that it is pretty much an ingrained tradition even today, you can be quite certain that it would be a rare exception that the dancers were NOT circumcised. The practice is particularly entrenched in the lower classes and with the exception of Farida Fahmy, and perhaps Negwa Fouad, all of the stars were from that class. I'm not going to name names, but the dancers I know in Egypt admitted to having it done and some even defended the practice.

This is one practice I wouldn't mind seeing go the way of the DoDoo Bird

khanjar · 05-30-2008, 10:46 PM

Yasmine, very true comments for those of another culture, and yes, it would be wise for us of the west to get off our moral high ground and ask the oppinions of those concerned.

But as far as the west is concerned and what happens in the west either through superstitious or erroneous knowledge, the practice should be discouraged, as it is mutilation without consent.

Many who had this procedure done to them, feel as though they have been abused.

KuteNurse · 05-31-2008, 02:19 AM

Working in the medical profession, I have never once seen a female circ or mutilation of the female genitalia. I also have not heard of American female circ's occuring. I suppose it is a posibility, but I keep up to date on most everything medical related specific to my job.

I have also heard that female circ's are common in Africa. I really do not know much more about how it is done exactly on a female. I have assisted with circs on male babies done by pediatricians.

da Sage · 05-31-2008, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yasmine Bint Al Nubia

My point is that we are judging a practice from a pedestal of cultural superiority! We call it mutilation, what do the native women call it? Do we care enough to ask the question and listen unbiasedly for the answer? Yes, we can express our feelings about the subject, but in the end, that's all we can do.

I don't believe it is possible to be completely without bias, but I have spoken with women who described certain cultural circumcision procedures as 1)only minorly invasive, and 2)highly desirable for both cosmetic and practical reasons. I personally don't have a big problem with it IF the circumcisionee truly understands and desires the procedure, and if the surgery is done safely.

And people who are against circumcision can join activist groups, make their friends and neighbors aware of the issue, and send money to programs that work against circumcision. This might actually create some change, however small.

For example, I thought male circumcision was no big deal, until I became aware of activists working against it. Guys who were completely hung up on their missing foreskin (sorry for the visual), and couldn't get past it. Even though I believe a circumcised penis is easier to keep clean and disease-free, I hesitate to take something away from my son at birth, that he can never get back.

So...education and "idle talk" does work. The non-issue becomes an issue; the assumed course of action becomes debatable.

da Sage · 05-31-2008, 02:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KuteNurse

Working in the medical profession, I have never once seen a female circ or mutilation of the female genitalia. I also have not heard of American female circ's occuring. I suppose it is a posibility, but I keep up to date on most everything medical related specific to my job.

I have also heard that female circ's are common in Africa. I really do not know much more about how it is done exactly on a female. I have assisted with circs on male babies done by pediatricians.

For some reason, I thought you worked with kids. Has that always been the case, or not so much? If the American circumcision of girls was most common in the fifties, those women might not be in your client base.

05-30-2008, 10:31 PM	#25 (permalink)
Yasmine Bint Al Nubia V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Akron, Ohio Posts: 1,138	Does it matter if we find female circumcision abhorrent? What does it change? This practice is thousands of years old and continues right up to the point it became known through Western media. Male circumcision occurs right in the hospital, beyond the awareness of the parents and yet that practice continues.My point is that we are judging a practice from a pedestal of cultural superiority! We call it mutilation, what do the native women call it? Do we care enough to ask the question and listen unbiasedly for the answer? Yes, we can express our feelings about the subject, but in the end, that's all we can do. Now how it relates to the dance is supposition,without the presence cold hard facts. Is it assumed from a Western psychological POV, that a woman would react with anger. But what if it's something else entirely? Maybe dance allows women to alleviate subconscious anger,frustration and hopelesness. __________________ www.visionsofthenile.com

05-30-2008, 10:03 PM	#24 (permalink)
khanjar Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: England Posts: 442	I have very strong feelings on the subject of circumcision, in that I believe the mutilation of either gender without the person's consent is abuse. Never mind all this parent thing until the age of whatever, my view is who is anyone to sanction the mutilation of another person's body without their consent. Circumcision of males for medical reasons,If there were ever any real reasons, now there are alternatives, steroids and such. Female circumcision in parts of Africa, is sadly a traditional thing, often carried out with no anaesthetic and in the unclean conditions of a hut floor with an unsterilised knife leaving the victim open to all kinds of infection and complications beyond. Such is my feeling about this mutilation, I have in the past sponsored a program in Kenya to educate and eradicate the tradition. Whether it is true or not about dancers who have been circumcised expressing their rage through dance, if they are doing so, I can very well believe it, and understand. If this is undesireable to express anger in dance because of what has happened to the dancer, may it help towards stopping it happening to others.

05-30-2008, 10:45 PM	#26 (permalink)
Tarik Sultan V.I.P. Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Jersey City, New Jersey Posts: 1,369	Female and male circumcision is not a recent practice. Its thousands of years old. Its found in Africa all across Africa from East to West Africa, although I don't think it is practiced in Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia or Libya. Given the geographic region of the practice It most likely came into Egypt when the original inhabitants migrated into the Nile Valley from East Africa. With regards to the dance, its neither here nor there. Seeing that it is pretty much an ingrained tradition even today, you can be quite certain that it would be a rare exception that the dancers were NOT circumcised. The practice is particularly entrenched in the lower classes and with the exception of Farida Fahmy, and perhaps Negwa Fouad, all of the stars were from that class. I'm not going to name names, but the dancers I know in Egypt admitted to having it done and some even defended the practice. This is one practice I wouldn't mind seeing go the way of the DoDoo Bird

05-30-2008, 10:46 PM	#27 (permalink)
khanjar Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: England Posts: 442	Yasmine, very true comments for those of another culture, and yes, it would be wise for us of the west to get off our moral high ground and ask the oppinions of those concerned. But as far as the west is concerned and what happens in the west either through superstitious or erroneous knowledge, the practice should be discouraged, as it is mutilation without consent. Many who had this procedure done to them, feel as though they have been abused.

05-31-2008, 02:19 AM	#28 (permalink)
KuteNurse V.I.P. Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Duluth, Minnesota Posts: 2,986	Working in the medical profession, I have never once seen a female circ or mutilation of the female genitalia. I also have not heard of American female circ's occuring. I suppose it is a posibility, but I keep up to date on most everything medical related specific to my job. I have also heard that female circ's are common in Africa. I really do not know much more about how it is done exactly on a female. I have assisted with circs on male babies done by pediatricians.