The Mother Goddess - Page 9

Jane · 05-07-2008, 04:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zorba

Obviously, your spirituality is different from mine - and that's OK. I feel a deep connection with the divine when I dance.

Some call it "Tarab".

I think we all feel "it", however we choose to interpret it.

It's why I dance.

Zorba · 05-07-2008, 03:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jane

It's why I dance.

Yes!

Kharmine · 05-11-2008, 08:52 PM

Ah, good to see that the interesting discussions are kept up on the forum!

Frankly, I find it annoying when people promote a world/religious/political view without having done enough research to back it up and without being willing to graciously accept that they might be called on it and have to produce something like reasonable evidence.

It might surprise some to know that in the mainstream versions of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism and (I believe) even Islam, God has no gender. The personification of God as male in these religions resulted out of human convenience and cultural bias. But any honest and truly knowledegeable rabbi, priest, minister, imam, monk, etc. will tell you that God is neither wholly male nor wholly female, but has the qualities of both.

Despite that, many will claim God, for some reason, favors men for positions of authority and direct representation of God's will on Earth. IMHO, that is influenced by cultural bias and, as a result, has fostered the modern yearning for a different god -- a Goddess, in fact.

And just as we humans tend to have a instinctual need for a God that looks like Us (whatever we may be), we also seem to have an instinctual need to insist to others (whether they've asked to know it or not) that our perception of God and His/Her will is the only true and correct one.

IMHO, anyone is certainly free to believe that the true nature of God is female, and that bellydance is therefore sacred to Her. Or not. They are not free to make it part of their instruction to nonbelievers, certainly not without accepting any challenge to such a discourteous practice.

Andrea Deagon · 05-12-2008, 03:09 AM

I saw a TV show some years ago that outlined conflicts between Native Americans and whites over land use in some Southwestern locale. The Native Americans were claiming a particular location as sacred territory, and the whites were indignant about it, expressing the idea that the Native Americans were making it all up -- they didn't meet there, they didn't have a church there, so how was it sacred? On the Native American side, there was general puzzlement about the idea that having some sort of building at a place would somehow make it sacred as opposed to not, and the expectation that there would be an "every Sunday" type of worship at a place was not at all in alignment with how they worshipped. So obviously, there is no right or wrong way to worship, but you can encounter significant differences in how you understand what worship is.

For me, belly dance is or can be a form of worship. I have never been able to sit still long enough to meditate in any way other than through movement to music. That meditative feeling, which is very enlivened and even enchanted, sometimes comes with me to performance, where I think you would call it tarab. I acknowledge that dance is entertainment, and there's no point in getting all het up about how sacred or artistic you are. But is it entertainment when I do it for myself, and feel the heightened senses of active meditation kick in? Or is it something else at that moment, in that time?

Of course it's human also, becuase I'm human and I'm doing it, from where my very human experiences have left me. But there's more, and that feels to me like a form of prayer. Not a "look at me, I'm all sacred and goddessy" kind of prayer, just a "here I am" sort of prayer.

To my historian's mind, this sort of sacred experience of this dance is a manifestation in the here and now, to whomever is drawn to it. None of us have the same body or the same face, so why should our spiritual experiences be identical? And why should we expect the spiritual realizations of people in antiquity to be the same as ours?

So I am all for the sacred in dance, if it manifests for you. But my best use of it has been to let it appear in reflection in my dance, for whomever cares to interpret it that way, as opposed to creating a mythic history and encouraging people to associate the dance with spurious fertility rituals ...
Still I think it's curious that the goddessy stuff pushes my buttons so hard when I am so deeply on the side of the spiritual potentials of belly dance. Maybe I am contradictory ...

Kharmine · 05-12-2008, 04:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrea Deagon

...
So I am all for the sacred in dance, if it manifests for you. But my best use of it has been to let it appear in reflection in my dance, for whomever cares to interpret it that way, as opposed to creating a mythic history and encouraging people to associate the dance with spurious fertility rituals ...
Still I think it's curious that the goddessy stuff pushes my buttons so hard when I am so deeply on the side of the spiritual potentials of belly dance. Maybe I am contradictory ...

The key word for me there is "mythic." I'm all for a good fantasy, a fab fable, a parable that speaks to me. But I suspect that, like a lot of us who delve into history and have to sort fact from fiction, we don't like the lines blurred. And we don't like it when others do it deliberately.

adiemus · 05-12-2008, 04:05 AM

What rubs me up the wrong way is the lack of rigour in reporting - when people state that bellydance originated in 'goddess worship' or 'childbirth rituals' they'd better make sure they have verifiable research to back their viewpoint up. I personally don't care if they believe in this BUT I do care about historical accuracy and integrity. If there is some supporting evidence - then go for it! but opinion dressed up as 'fact', that just gets me aggravated.

Reen.Blom · 05-12-2008, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adiemus

What rubs me up the wrong way is the lack of rigour in reporting - when people state that bellydance originated in 'goddess worship' or 'childbirth rituals' they'd better make sure they have verifiable research to back their viewpoint up. I personally don't care if they believe in this BUT I do care about historical accuracy and integrity. If there is some supporting evidence - then go for it! but opinion dressed up as 'fact', that just gets me aggravated.

Totally agreed. I think many people just dont bother to verify the info they get, especiall online!

Suheir · 05-12-2008, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reen.Blom

Totally agreed. I think many people just dont bother to verify the info they get, especiall online!

Too right!

Caroline_afifi · 05-12-2008, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrea Deagon

For me, belly dance is or can be a form of worship. I have never been able to sit still long enough to meditate in any way other than through movement to music. That meditative feeling, which is very enlivened and even enchanted, sometimes comes with me to performance, where I think you would call it tarab. I acknowledge that dance is entertainment, and there's no point in getting all het up about how sacred or artistic you are. But is it entertainment when I do it for myself, and feel the heightened senses of active meditation kick in? Or is it something else at that moment, in that time?

Of course it's human also, becuase I'm human and I'm doing it, from where my very human experiences have left me. But there's more, and that feels to me like a form of prayer. Not a "look at me, I'm all sacred and goddessy" kind of prayer, just a "here I am" sort of prayer.

I sort of know what you mean but cant we just call it relaxation, escapism, me time? why does it have to have divine connections with anything other than the self?

Aisha Azar · 05-12-2008, 01:49 PM

Dear Andrea,

Quote:

For me, belly dance is or can be a form of worship. I have never been able to sit still long enough to meditate in any way other than through movement to music. That meditative feeling, which is very enlivened and even enchanted, sometimes comes with me to performance, where I think you would call it tarab. I acknowledge that dance is entertainment, and there's no point in getting all het up about how sacred or artistic you are. But is it entertainment when I do it for myself, and feel the heightened senses of active meditation kick in? Or is it something else at that moment, in that time?

This same feeling can happen during any activity, and I do not think it has sacred significance, necessarily. They say people can get in the zone during football, or fighting a battle, or any activity that puts a person complete alpha wave focus. As a Panthiest I do believe that there is not one unsacred moment, but I think that worship is a different matter all together.
When we do it for ourselves, I am not sure that it is worship then either, since worship is usually about something outside ourselves and larger than ourselves unless we are pretty darn narcissistic! And I know that is certainly not outside the realm of folks in the dance and entertainment words, but you do not really strike me as the type (LOL)!
Regards,
A'isha

05-11-2008, 08:52 PM	#83 (permalink)
Kharmine V.I.P. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Foot of the Rocky Mountains Posts: 1,248	Ah, good to see that the interesting discussions are kept up on the forum! Frankly, I find it annoying when people promote a world/religious/political view without having done enough research to back it up and without being willing to graciously accept that they might be called on it and have to produce something like reasonable evidence. It might surprise some to know that in the mainstream versions of Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism and (I believe) even Islam, God has no gender. The personification of God as male in these religions resulted out of human convenience and cultural bias. But any honest and truly knowledegeable rabbi, priest, minister, imam, monk, etc. will tell you that God is neither wholly male nor wholly female, but has the qualities of both. Despite that, many will claim God, for some reason, favors men for positions of authority and direct representation of God's will on Earth. IMHO, that is influenced by cultural bias and, as a result, has fostered the modern yearning for a different god -- a Goddess, in fact. And just as we humans tend to have a instinctual need for a God that looks like Us (whatever we may be), we also seem to have an instinctual need to insist to others (whether they've asked to know it or not) that our perception of God and His/Her will is the only true and correct one. IMHO, anyone is certainly free to believe that the true nature of God is female, and that bellydance is therefore sacred to Her. Or not. They are not free to make it part of their instruction to nonbelievers, certainly not without accepting any challenge to such a discourteous practice. __________________ What if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about?

05-12-2008, 03:09 AM	#84 (permalink)
Andrea Deagon Member Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Wilmington, NC Posts: 123	I saw a TV show some years ago that outlined conflicts between Native Americans and whites over land use in some Southwestern locale. The Native Americans were claiming a particular location as sacred territory, and the whites were indignant about it, expressing the idea that the Native Americans were making it all up -- they didn't meet there, they didn't have a church there, so how was it sacred? On the Native American side, there was general puzzlement about the idea that having some sort of building at a place would somehow make it sacred as opposed to not, and the expectation that there would be an "every Sunday" type of worship at a place was not at all in alignment with how they worshipped. So obviously, there is no right or wrong way to worship, but you can encounter significant differences in how you understand what worship is. For me, belly dance is or can be a form of worship. I have never been able to sit still long enough to meditate in any way other than through movement to music. That meditative feeling, which is very enlivened and even enchanted, sometimes comes with me to performance, where I think you would call it tarab. I acknowledge that dance is entertainment, and there's no point in getting all het up about how sacred or artistic you are. But is it entertainment when I do it for myself, and feel the heightened senses of active meditation kick in? Or is it something else at that moment, in that time? Of course it's human also, becuase I'm human and I'm doing it, from where my very human experiences have left me. But there's more, and that feels to me like a form of prayer. Not a "look at me, I'm all sacred and goddessy" kind of prayer, just a "here I am" sort of prayer. To my historian's mind, this sort of sacred experience of this dance is a manifestation in the here and now, to whomever is drawn to it. None of us have the same body or the same face, so why should our spiritual experiences be identical? And why should we expect the spiritual realizations of people in antiquity to be the same as ours? So I am all for the sacred in dance, if it manifests for you. But my best use of it has been to let it appear in reflection in my dance, for whomever cares to interpret it that way, as opposed to creating a mythic history and encouraging people to associate the dance with spurious fertility rituals ... Still I think it's curious that the goddessy stuff pushes my buttons so hard when I am so deeply on the side of the spiritual potentials of belly dance. Maybe I am contradictory ... __________________ "I am not contradictory, I am dispersed." (Roland Barthes)

05-12-2008, 04:05 AM	#86 (permalink)
adiemus Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Christchurch, New Zealand Posts: 977	What rubs me up the wrong way is the lack of rigour in reporting - when people state that bellydance originated in 'goddess worship' or 'childbirth rituals' they'd better make sure they have verifiable research to back their viewpoint up. I personally don't care if they believe in this BUT I do care about historical accuracy and integrity. If there is some supporting evidence - then go for it! but opinion dressed up as 'fact', that just gets me aggravated. __________________ He wahine, he taonga- Every woman is a treasure(Maori proverb)