The Mother Goddess - Page 5

PriscillaAdum · 04-19-2008, 05:40 PM

Well, as long as you've got these stories about temple rites being taught as fact, even on videos produced by prestigious companies, people are going to believe them.

"Although the history of bellydance is murky prior to the late 1800's, many experts believe that it's roots go back to the temple rites in India."

This quote is from the WHAT IS BELLYDANCE? section of an IAMED instructional DVD.
I'd love to know who the experts are. The only person who I've actually heard say this was Ansuya when she was here. I don't consider her an expert on the history of dance though.

Regards
Priscilla

Jane · 04-19-2008, 06:23 PM

I think a lot of people view old as equaling "credible". If belly dance is ancient Egyptian, Wicca is tied to an ancient Goddess religion, or tie them in with each other, somehow people feel like they have more credibility today.

I'm a Wiccan Belly Dancer who also likes history, so forcing facts to fit an agenda buggs me too. Our modern Wicca started with Gerald Gardner and modern Raks Sharki started with Badia Masabni. Yes, they pulled from older sources, but what we do today is directly related to their ideals.

I also think that worship/liturgical dances, of any kind, should be kept for that specific audience, and not presented to the unsuspecting public at large.

Brea · 04-19-2008, 11:43 PM

I find it extremely difficult to make these historical points with my classes. One of my students told me a professor told her that Egyptians could bellydance because they had an extra stomach muscle. Ever heard that one before?

Suheir · 04-20-2008, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brea

I find it extremely difficult to make these historical points with my classes. One of my students told me a professor told her that Egyptians could bellydance because they had an extra stomach muscle. Ever heard that one before?

Not heard that one, but I did once read some crapola on another messageboard from a teacher saying that belly dance movements came "more naturally" to Egyptians' bodies!

Brea · 04-20-2008, 12:18 AM

I try very hard to instruct my students well. I fear I sound rude when I hear things and just say 'That's not true'. What kind of professor would say something like that to someone? My baby dancers do not need more silliness. I told her I was Scottish and Irish, and I can move my stomach like that too, so I must have that extra muscle.

adiemus · 04-20-2008, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suheir

Not heard that one, but I did once read some crapola on another messageboard from a teacher saying that belly dance movements came "more naturally" to Egyptians' bodies!

I suppose, one could say that movements that we learn as children DO come a lot more easily than if they're learned in adulthood....! but as for an extra muscle????

Zumarrad · 04-20-2008, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jane

I'm Wiccan. I keep my religious dance to myself, not in a public venu. I tell people the history of American Belly Dance and the Original Ethnic dance forms from what I've researched as historical fact.

A historical aspect: In the late 1800's and early 1900's many things were popular in Great Brit. and America and got a bit mixed in with each other: Ruth St. Denis, spirtitism, Orientalism, Alister Crowley & his Golden Dawn bunch, the works of James George Frazer & Robert Graves, Magick & Stage Magic, ancient Egypt, Theosophy, etc. Modern Wicca was influenced by many of these things.

At the Chicago World's Fair in 1893, the first "belly dancers" were popularized in America. I think because American Belly Dance is descended from Orientalism of this time, a bit of these other ideas got mixed in because they were popular culture.

Later things got mixed again. The works of Joseph Campbell had an influence on the Mother Goddess movement of the late 1960's and early 70's. Some of these people were also discovering belly dance at the same time. San Francisco spawned Renaissance Fairs and the SCA, Marrion Zimmer Bradley and her influential book "Mists of Avalon", Feminism, Bal Anat and what eventually became ATS, Hippies, and neo-paganism. A lot of folks were active in several of these counter-culture groups. I think it's an American phenomena to have the Godess Movement tied in with Belly Dance.

Jane, that's a very insightful approach.

karena · 04-20-2008, 11:23 AM

Perhaps the person repeating the professor remembered differently to what the professor had meant? And if you look to Bourdieu, (I'm pretty sure it is Bourdieu, or if not another french philosopher of that era, I do other french postmodernists) there is an argument that we hold our social context in our body, so therefore an Egyptian would move differently and thus would dance differently, and if one's looking toward the essence thing it makes a difference. I think a professor would be promoting discussion rather that stating fact.

Zumarrad · 04-20-2008, 11:39 AM

Yup, it pretty much is Bourdieu and I think it ties specifically into his concept of habitus. Idea being that your body (including how it looks) is a product of the way you use it and it is in effect produced by the culture and environment in which you live. Obviously people don't develop new extra muscles (!) but everything from what you eat, how you sit, the kind of work you do, how you carry things, etc etc has an effect, and it is largely cultural. For example, my Japanese friend has very flexible tendons and hamstrings, tons of range of movement down, and she pointed out the other day that squatting is really normal in Japan - it's how you use the loo. Similarly she can sit kneeling very comfortably, because when she was growing up that was "good" sitting. Body language is cultural - the "natural" way to beckon to someone in my culture is the complete opposite to the "natural" way in other cultures.

Jane · 04-20-2008, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zumarrad

Jane, that's a very insightful approach.

Thanks, I'm glad it makes a bit of sense.

04-19-2008, 11:43 PM	#43 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	I find it extremely difficult to make these historical points with my classes. One of my students told me a professor told her that Egyptians could bellydance because they had an extra stomach muscle. Ever heard that one before? __________________ www.breamorgiane.com

04-20-2008, 12:18 AM	#45 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	I try very hard to instruct my students well. I fear I sound rude when I hear things and just say 'That's not true'. What kind of professor would say something like that to someone? My baby dancers do not need more silliness. I told her I was Scottish and Irish, and I can move my stomach like that too, so I must have that extra muscle. __________________ www.breamorgiane.com

04-20-2008, 11:23 AM	#48 (permalink)
karena Moderator Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: The North, UK Posts: 820	Perhaps the person repeating the professor remembered differently to what the professor had meant? And if you look to Bourdieu, (I'm pretty sure it is Bourdieu, or if not another french philosopher of that era, I do other french postmodernists) there is an argument that we hold our social context in our body, so therefore an Egyptian would move differently and thus would dance differently, and if one's looking toward the essence thing it makes a difference. I think a professor would be promoting discussion rather that stating fact. __________________ "Nothing is black and white, it's all shades of grey" Me Last edited by karena; 04-20-2008 at 11:25 AM.

04-19-2008, 05:40 PM	#41 (permalink)
PriscillaAdum Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 166	Well, as long as you've got these stories about temple rites being taught as fact, even on videos produced by prestigious companies, people are going to believe them. "Although the history of bellydance is murky prior to the late 1800's, many experts believe that it's roots go back to the temple rites in India." This quote is from the WHAT IS BELLYDANCE? section of an IAMED instructional DVD. I'd love to know who the experts are. The only person who I've actually heard say this was Ansuya when she was here. I don't consider her an expert on the history of dance though. Regards Priscilla

04-19-2008, 06:23 PM	#42 (permalink)
Jane Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: In the mountains Posts: 432	I think a lot of people view old as equaling "credible". If belly dance is ancient Egyptian, Wicca is tied to an ancient Goddess religion, or tie them in with each other, somehow people feel like they have more credibility today. I'm a Wiccan Belly Dancer who also likes history, so forcing facts to fit an agenda buggs me too. Our modern Wicca started with Gerald Gardner and modern Raks Sharki started with Badia Masabni. Yes, they pulled from older sources, but what we do today is directly related to their ideals. I also think that worship/liturgical dances, of any kind, should be kept for that specific audience, and not presented to the unsuspecting public at large.

04-20-2008, 11:39 AM	#49 (permalink)
Zumarrad Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: New Zealand Posts: 84	Yup, it pretty much is Bourdieu and I think it ties specifically into his concept of habitus. Idea being that your body (including how it looks) is a product of the way you use it and it is in effect produced by the culture and environment in which you live. Obviously people don't develop new extra muscles (!) but everything from what you eat, how you sit, the kind of work you do, how you carry things, etc etc has an effect, and it is largely cultural. For example, my Japanese friend has very flexible tendons and hamstrings, tons of range of movement down, and she pointed out the other day that squatting is really normal in Japan - it's how you use the loo. Similarly she can sit kneeling very comfortably, because when she was growing up that was "good" sitting. Body language is cultural - the "natural" way to beckon to someone in my culture is the complete opposite to the "natural" way in other cultures.