The Mother Goddess - Page 3

KuteNurse · 04-13-2008, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lydia dubai

I wish that this ,,godess things just go away...it just put me off...when i hear or read about artist that are using this term god in anyway ,yak....

Yes,

No offense to anyone if they believe in the mother goddess, but it just strikes me as weird. lol

Brea · 04-13-2008, 08:31 PM

Count me in as a knight, then. There are teachers who claim the purpose of it IS to seduce men as well. It's a hard old world we live in. I am going to go over this part of the history again in my class, just to make sure.

Zorba · 04-13-2008, 11:36 PM

The world is a huge place, in both space and time. I'm quite sure that someone, somewhere, sometime danced something that we might recognize as "Belly Dance" in honor of one Goddess or another. Maybe even in a temple, maybe not; in a sacred space to be certain. Ditto for honoring one or more Gods.

I have no problems with the Goddessey types (I've danced with my share of them); if such a belief gets them through the day, who am I to gainsay them? It makes as much sense as any other religion, and is far more wholesome than most that we encounter in the world today.

As for myself, I'm a good old fashioned polytheist, and I honor many Gods and Goddesses although my patron "just happens to be" a Goddess, the Goddess Athena. Unlike most Pagans, I'm not a Duotheist after the Gardnerian model. And I most certainly am NOT a monotheist!

I'm glad several have mentioned the spiritual aspect of dance - that *is* the ultimate draw for me. The beauty and spirituality.

Brea · 04-14-2008, 12:22 AM

Zorba- Duotheist? Can you explain the Gardner thing?

I want to make it clear I don't have an issue with peoples' religions at all. I also think dance can be spiritual. I'm mostly concerned with history as we know it.

Zorba · 04-14-2008, 03:07 PM

Completely understand Brea - Google Gerald Gardner and Wicca, plenty of reading.

Jane · 04-14-2008, 05:26 PM

I'm Wiccan. I keep my religious dance to myself, not in a public venu. I tell people the history of American Belly Dance and the Original Ethnic dance forms from what I've researched as historical fact.

A historical aspect: In the late 1800's and early 1900's many things were popular in Great Brit. and America and got a bit mixed in with each other: Ruth St. Denis, spirtitism, Orientalism, Alister Crowley & his Golden Dawn bunch, the works of James George Frazer & Robert Graves, Magick & Stage Magic, ancient Egypt, Theosophy, etc. Modern Wicca was influenced by many of these things.

At the Chicago World's Fair in 1893, the first "belly dancers" were popularized in America. I think because American Belly Dance is descended from Orientalism of this time, a bit of these other ideas got mixed in because they were popular culture.

Later things got mixed again. The works of Joseph Campbell had an influence on the Mother Goddess movement of the late 1960's and early 70's. Some of these people were also discovering belly dance at the same time. San Francisco spawned Renaissance Fairs and the SCA, Marrion Zimmer Bradley and her influential book "Mists of Avalon", Feminism, Bal Anat and what eventually became ATS, Hippies, and neo-paganism. A lot of folks were active in several of these counter-culture groups. I think it's an American phenomena to have the Godess Movement tied in with Belly Dance.

Jane · 04-14-2008, 05:32 PM

Minoan Snake Goddess

Another example of how things get interpreted by belly dancers.

Brea · 04-14-2008, 08:38 PM

Well, bleh on the Mists of Avalon, the bane of any Celtic historian!

I'm one of those odd Christians that likes all kinds of spirituality and people. I even have a very prominent tattoo of Jesus on my upper right arm. Still, I leave that out of the dance thing.

The goddess aspect of dance does seem to be oddly popular, though.

Jane · 04-14-2008, 11:27 PM

[quote=Brea;70104]Well, bleh on the Mists of Avalon, the bane of any Celtic historian!QUOTE]

People sometimes don't remember that it was a work of fiction, and not ever intended to be anything but. Marrion Zimmer Bradley also wrote SciFi and was one of the founding members of the SCA along with Diana Paxon. Both these ladies were also present in the Neo-Pagan community around Berkeley CA. The SCA started out as a fantasy/medieval/Tolkien club and only later changed the mission statement to historical. Some SCAdians, including many belly dancers, still have trouble separating real history from what "feels right". This is why there is such a strong ATS presence in the SCA, although I'm happy to say that's changing.

Does this help al all Brea, or is it just making things worse?

Brea · 04-15-2008, 12:35 AM

Jane-

I'm not sure if it makes things better or worse. I've studied Scottish history and folklore for almost a decade now and whenever I meet someone who tells me something like 'I have a tartan kilt because it's my religion' and explains patiently to me that Mists of Avalon is an accurate history...arrrgh!

I am aware that Zimmer-Bradley didn't intend it to be anything else. Much like in bellydance it seems that people believe what feels good to them and disregard the history.

It's my own personal hell that I happened to choose two things that would be so laden with this kind of historical silliness...and I've noticed they're often the same people. Maybe it's the SCA connection, who knows? I've known the SCA to get things miserably wrong and insist it's history too...maybe I am fighting a losing battle here.

My history prof always said, 'You have to hold their hands to bring them to better understanding, not brain them over the head with it'

Considering most of my life experience has involved the unsubtle braining approach, that is a new concept for me.

04-13-2008, 08:31 PM	#22 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	Count me in as a knight, then. There are teachers who claim the purpose of it IS to seduce men as well. It's a hard old world we live in. I am going to go over this part of the history again in my class, just to make sure. __________________ www.breamorgiane.com

04-13-2008, 11:36 PM	#23 (permalink)
Zorba Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 740	The world is a huge place, in both space and time. I'm quite sure that someone, somewhere, sometime danced something that we might recognize as "Belly Dance" in honor of one Goddess or another. Maybe even in a temple, maybe not; in a sacred space to be certain. Ditto for honoring one or more Gods. I have no problems with the Goddessey types (I've danced with my share of them); if such a belief gets them through the day, who am I to gainsay them? It makes as much sense as any other religion, and is far more wholesome than most that we encounter in the world today. As for myself, I'm a good old fashioned polytheist, and I honor many Gods and Goddesses although my patron "just happens to be" a Goddess, the Goddess Athena. Unlike most Pagans, I'm not a Duotheist after the Gardnerian model. And I most certainly am NOT a monotheist! I'm glad several have mentioned the spiritual aspect of dance - that is the ultimate draw for me. The beauty and spirituality. __________________ -Zorba "The Veiled Male" http://www.doubleveil.net

04-14-2008, 12:22 AM	#24 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	Zorba- Duotheist? Can you explain the Gardner thing? I want to make it clear I don't have an issue with peoples' religions at all. I also think dance can be spiritual. I'm mostly concerned with history as we know it. __________________ www.breamorgiane.com

04-14-2008, 03:07 PM	#25 (permalink)
Zorba Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 740	Completely understand Brea - Google Gerald Gardner and Wicca, plenty of reading. __________________ -Zorba "The Veiled Male" http://www.doubleveil.net

04-14-2008, 08:38 PM	#28 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	Well, bleh on the Mists of Avalon, the bane of any Celtic historian! I'm one of those odd Christians that likes all kinds of spirituality and people. I even have a very prominent tattoo of Jesus on my upper right arm. Still, I leave that out of the dance thing. The goddess aspect of dance does seem to be oddly popular, though. __________________ www.breamorgiane.com

04-14-2008, 05:26 PM	#26 (permalink)
Jane Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: In the mountains Posts: 333	I'm Wiccan. I keep my religious dance to myself, not in a public venu. I tell people the history of American Belly Dance and the Original Ethnic dance forms from what I've researched as historical fact. A historical aspect: In the late 1800's and early 1900's many things were popular in Great Brit. and America and got a bit mixed in with each other: Ruth St. Denis, spirtitism, Orientalism, Alister Crowley & his Golden Dawn bunch, the works of James George Frazer & Robert Graves, Magick & Stage Magic, ancient Egypt, Theosophy, etc. Modern Wicca was influenced by many of these things. At the Chicago World's Fair in 1893, the first "belly dancers" were popularized in America. I think because American Belly Dance is descended from Orientalism of this time, a bit of these other ideas got mixed in because they were popular culture. Later things got mixed again. The works of Joseph Campbell had an influence on the Mother Goddess movement of the late 1960's and early 70's. Some of these people were also discovering belly dance at the same time. San Francisco spawned Renaissance Fairs and the SCA, Marrion Zimmer Bradley and her influential book "Mists of Avalon", Feminism, Bal Anat and what eventually became ATS, Hippies, and neo-paganism. A lot of folks were active in several of these counter-culture groups. I think it's an American phenomena to have the Godess Movement tied in with Belly Dance.

04-14-2008, 05:32 PM	#27 (permalink)
Jane Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: In the mountains Posts: 333	Minoan Snake Goddess Another example of how things get interpreted by belly dancers.

04-14-2008, 11:27 PM	#29 (permalink)
Jane Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: In the mountains Posts: 333	[quote=Brea;70104]Well, bleh on the Mists of Avalon, the bane of any Celtic historian!QUOTE] People sometimes don't remember that it was a work of fiction, and not ever intended to be anything but. Marrion Zimmer Bradley also wrote SciFi and was one of the founding members of the SCA along with Diana Paxon. Both these ladies were also present in the Neo-Pagan community around Berkeley CA. The SCA started out as a fantasy/medieval/Tolkien club and only later changed the mission statement to historical. Some SCAdians, including many belly dancers, still have trouble separating real history from what "feels right". This is why there is such a strong ATS presence in the SCA, although I'm happy to say that's changing. Does this help al all Brea, or is it just making things worse?

04-15-2008, 12:35 AM	#30 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	Jane- I'm not sure if it makes things better or worse. I've studied Scottish history and folklore for almost a decade now and whenever I meet someone who tells me something like 'I have a tartan kilt because it's my religion' and explains patiently to me that Mists of Avalon is an accurate history...arrrgh! I am aware that Zimmer-Bradley didn't intend it to be anything else. Much like in bellydance it seems that people believe what feels good to them and disregard the history. It's my own personal hell that I happened to choose two things that would be so laden with this kind of historical silliness...and I've noticed they're often the same people. Maybe it's the SCA connection, who knows? I've known the SCA to get things miserably wrong and insist it's history too...maybe I am fighting a losing battle here. My history prof always said, 'You have to hold their hands to bring them to better understanding, not brain them over the head with it' Considering most of my life experience has involved the unsubtle braining approach, that is a new concept for me. __________________ www.breamorgiane.com Last edited by Brea; 04-15-2008 at 12:38 AM.