The Mother Goddess - Page 17

Caroline_afifi · 06-08-2008, 10:07 AM

What if some of this is true??

I have actually heard some dance teachers say this sort of stuff and one in particular taught a group how to squat and shimmy like this suggested.
We all thought she was nuts but perhaps she was just quoting Des?

I doubt somehow but I do know that when I have taught women beginners class the first thing they often do is run home and get dressed up for the hubby for a private show.

I have heard so many women talk about these lessons as a tool for better sex... then they move on and make it about them.

maylynn · 06-08-2008, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

What if some of this is true??

I have actually heard some dance teachers say this sort of stuff and one in particular taught a group how to squat and shimmy like this suggested.
We all thought she was nuts but perhaps she was just quoting Des?

I doubt somehow but I do know that when I have taught women beginners class the first thing they often do is run home and get dressed up for the hubby for a private show.

I have heard so many women talk about these lessons as a tool for better sex... then they move on and make it about them.

Well you're right, we cannot say that these activities did not happen in some harem at some time, somewhere. Some of the movements in bellydance are old (and some are not), and may have been used in various ways throughout history. I have a book by Gustave Flaubert called The desert and the dancing girls that are notes from his trip to Egypt in 1849. He describes differently styles of scantily-clad dancing by prostitutes in brothels as bellydance. And we know that kind of thing still occurs in Egypt, too. So yeah, there could be an element of truth in Des' story, but it totally ignores baladi/hagallah/saidi/tsiftitelli/nubian/north african etc. that are beautiful contributions to the dance from other aspects of cultures.

However, I think it's pretty safe to say that the dance that we consider bellydance is pretty far removed from Des' description and has much more of a technical and emotional element associated with it. I mean, how boring and repetitive would bellydance be if we only had the 3 types of movements that he describes? What Western audience would sit through that?? Clearly he's a bit of a prude and doesn't really know what he's talking about - I don't think I know anyone who would get hot under the collar at the words 'pivoting hip rotation'!

Aniseteph · 06-08-2008, 01:10 PM

Has anyone here got the Tina Hobin book, and does she quote sources? Shira has reviewed what I think is the same book Book Review: Belly Dancing For Health And Relaxation and noted it was big on harem fantasy.

And there's another book by the same author called "Belly Dance: The Dance of Mother Earth". To quote Amazon (US site):

Quote:

From Publishers Weekly
A performer, teacher and scholar, Hobin is a British authority on the art of belly dancing, and her new volume is a work of serious dance history, not of titillation or instruction (though one chapter on basic belly dancing movements is included). Hobin traces belly dancing back to its roots in the "fertility dances of the mother goddess cult" and gives a detailed discussion of ancient Egypt, where, she says, "dance was an expression of joy and an integral part of magic, religious rituals and funeral rites."...

Oh dear, no titillation in that one.

But we are back at the Mother Goddess where this thread started, how cosmically balanced is that eh?

Suheir · 06-08-2008, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniseteph

Has anyone here got the Tina Hobin book, and does she quote sources? Shira has reviewed what I think is the same book Book Review: Belly Dancing For Health And Relaxation and noted it was big on harem fantasy.

And there's another book by the same author called "Belly Dance: The Dance of Mother Earth". To quote Amazon (US site):

Oh dear, no titillation in that one.

But we are back at the Mother Goddess where this thread started, how cosmically balanced is that eh?

I have Tina Hobin's original book (and the subsequent volume), she quotes *no* sources whatsoever, there are no acknowledgements at all. Her entire chapter about musical instruments is lifted virtually wholesale from Edward Lane's book Manners and Customs of the Modern Egyptians (1836), line drawings included. It mentions clay tablas/darbuckas being used in the harems in Cairo. In the present tense. In 1982.

Oh, and it's always the definite article, "the" belly dance.

Brea · 06-08-2008, 03:36 PM

*sigh* and around we go right back to the Mother Goddess thing.

(ps, that Morris article was also cringeworthy)

I see why my students tend to get things mixed up!!!

Caroline_afifi · 06-08-2008, 08:50 PM

I am confused myself actaully. Are we saying that there is no proof of Goddess and fertility dances?

Des's article was trying to discuss humans like he does other animals but I rather wonder where he got his ideas from. I suppose these ideas are ingrained in MED dance history in some way as they are so wide spread.
I suppose I am thinking that we cannot always trust what is said, but no proof does not mean did not happen or exsist. It's a really tricky one.
If you look at how some 'history' was recorded and the perspective it came from, it throws so much of what we take for granted into question.

Aisha Azar · 06-08-2008, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

I am confused myself actaully. Are we saying that there is no proof of Goddess and fertility dances?

Des's article was trying to discuss humans like he does other animals but I rather wonder where he got his ideas from. I suppose these ideas are ingrained in MED dance history in some way as they are so wide spread.
I suppose I am thinking that we cannot always trust what is said, but no proof does not mean did not happen or exsist. It's a really tricky one.
If you look at how some 'history' was recorded and the perspective it came from, it throws so much of what we take for granted into question.

Dear Caroline,
I think that it is safe to say that there probably were fertility and goddess rituals that included dance, and that some such even remain today among some peoples. I think the question here is more related to whether or not there is a tie in to belly dance. Since the dance is all of 100 years old and can be traced directly to a time, an era, social and economic and other conditions in specific places, that so-called connection would only be extremely tenuous.
While it is not entirely impossible that some woman in some sergelio somewhere in the Turkish empire did not top off some fat sultan with the three movements described by Morris, that does not in any way mean that what happened was in any way related to belly dance, either. We know more about actual belly dance than Morris did,for sure!!
Regards,
A'isha

Suheir · 06-08-2008, 10:27 PM

I can't imagine every single "overlord" was grossly obese - what about the popular pastimes of riding, hunting and falconry, for a start?

Brea · 06-09-2008, 04:24 PM

I'm with you there, Suheir.

Aisha Azar · 06-09-2008, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suheir

I can't imagine every single "overlord" was grossly obese - what about the popular pastimes of riding, hunting and falconry, for a start?

Dear Suheir,
Er.... having seen some of the Saudis who indulge in such pastimes, let me assure you, you can be pretty darn hefty and still do them all, especially if you do it once a year and a Pakistani servant and a couple of Salukis and the Bird do all the real work!! LOL
Regards,
A'isha

06-08-2008, 03:36 PM	#165 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	sigh and around we go right back to the Mother Goddess thing. (ps, that Morris article was also cringeworthy) I see why my students tend to get things mixed up!!! __________________ www.breamorgiane.com

06-09-2008, 04:24 PM	#169 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	I'm with you there, Suheir. __________________ www.breamorgiane.com

06-08-2008, 10:07 AM	#161 (permalink)
Caroline_afifi V.I.P. Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Liverpool UK Posts: 1,335	What if some of this is true?? I have actually heard some dance teachers say this sort of stuff and one in particular taught a group how to squat and shimmy like this suggested. We all thought she was nuts but perhaps she was just quoting Des? I doubt somehow but I do know that when I have taught women beginners class the first thing they often do is run home and get dressed up for the hubby for a private show. I have heard so many women talk about these lessons as a tool for better sex... then they move on and make it about them.

06-08-2008, 08:50 PM	#166 (permalink)
Caroline_afifi V.I.P. Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Liverpool UK Posts: 1,335	I am confused myself actaully. Are we saying that there is no proof of Goddess and fertility dances? Des's article was trying to discuss humans like he does other animals but I rather wonder where he got his ideas from. I suppose these ideas are ingrained in MED dance history in some way as they are so wide spread. I suppose I am thinking that we cannot always trust what is said, but no proof does not mean did not happen or exsist. It's a really tricky one. If you look at how some 'history' was recorded and the perspective it came from, it throws so much of what we take for granted into question.

06-08-2008, 10:27 PM	#168 (permalink)
Suheir V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Europe - London Posts: 1,227	I can't imagine every single "overlord" was grossly obese - what about the popular pastimes of riding, hunting and falconry, for a start?