Aisha Azar

Dear Khanjar,

[quote=khanjar;74928]Dear A'isha,


Me too!! It is entirely hit and miss with me.



There is PLENTY of size, age and other prejudices against women in the world of belly dance and always has been. Younger women tend to get work in all countries, even when older dancers are superior in skill. In countries of origin there is a lot of prejudice against dark skinned women. Mouna Said, one of the best dancers ever, had to leave Egypt to work before she became famous. Women of larger sizes were once very much more acceptable than they are now in practically every country, but even then it was not considered good to be hugely fat for dancers. I am not sure what you mean by "male free environment". I only know of one and that was the Forbidden City in China where all men except the emperor had to leave before dark. Women the world over who have been in such situations as the sereglios of Turkey, were often at each other's throats, and youth and beauty counted greatly. Can you please explain how this has anything to do with belly dance?
I am not trying to be mean here, but I get the feeling you have been told some things about the dance, and about women, that are not true.





I don't think that the origins of belly dance had anything to do with harems, etc, or anything having to do with outside palace walls. And, men in the Middle East and North Africa, as well as women, are for the most part insecure about male belly dancers. They feel that it is a female activity and there are very strong taboos about men doing female activities. This is the general attitude, though some do not feel this way. I would say at least 90 percent do.... probably more. Prejudice against female belly dancers is also high as it is a shameful way to make a living in the eyes of most people there.

My point was that there is plenty of appreciation of males , by males from a perspective that is not necessarily feminine, but which still exists. You might not be interested in the beauty of men doing sports, but I think plenty of other men are. My husband is totally intrigued by Tiger Woods and a couple of other golfers, their grace and beauty in their golf swing, etc. He may no put it in the same words as me, but he means the same thing! He appreciates that int he same way I appreciate watching a truly fine dancer. I have heard other men make similar comments about men playing basket ball, or football, or performing dance etc.

Regards,
A'isha
Regards,
A'isha

khanjar

Dear A'isha,

And there exists our difference of oppinion, for I am talking about the local level groups that meet up to learn and practise. These classes from what my sisters have told me, all of them into this form of dance are generally male free and accept anyone who wishes to learn regardless of age, beauty or size. I have been told about wiccans who do it for another reason besides the love of the dance, but that is up to them as long as they don't start preaching, which they are not allowed to due to wiccan law.

Of course there will be a difference with those who dance professionally, as there is in any form of stage performance and for that matter other forms of employment as discrimination sadly exists the world over.

My wish to learn this dance, is for my own interest on an amateur basis. I have no plans for public performance, either amateur or should I ever be that successful ,professional. The latter I hardly think will happen, as I am past forty now, how many years study to become proficient ? Despite what skill I might have, a new dancer nearing fifty I would hardly think employable. Anyways, by the time I am fifty, I hope to have my own business up and running, doing something entirely different to dance.

Sorry for the confusion.

Aisha Azar

Dear Khanjar,
I hope that you very much enjoy the dancing. I also feel that it is best to go into it with an idea about the reality instead of just the romantic fantasy of us all being one big, happy family with liberty and justice for all,even at local levels! I guess you will learn for yourself, but meanwhile, no matter what happens, in the end remember that the dance is the dance and it is separate from the people who are involved in it, if that makes sense. Pursue the dance and you will have something that will never let you down.
Regards,
A'isha

belly_dancer

THAT is IT A'isha!!!!
thanks!!

khanjar

Dear A'isha,

It is true I nothing about all this, only what I can glean from these forums and from what people have told me. With that, I am expecting criticism, snide remarks, attempts to humiliate, questioning and perhaps even under the breath insults. Not to mention partners and boyfriends learning that there is a male there learning to dance. I would like to think better of people, but I am expecting perhaps the worst, if those whom I meet are better than what I am expecting, then that is a plus, my faith in civilised humanity restored.

I am going to take a class in this because I am interested in the dance, not the people there, they will soon find that out, though I will reward friendly and decent behaviour with the same, as I can be the perfect gentleman.

Khanjar

Aisha Azar

Dear Khanjar,
Men have always been welcome and even somewhat expected in my classes, though they are few. I have only met one American woman who specifically did not want to teach men, and men have been around the dance scene in the States for longer than I have been dancing, which is a darn long time now. I hope you get a warm welcome!
Regards,
AA

khanjar

Thank you.

Andrea Deagon

maylinn, I'm joining this late, but i have to thank you for that reference. When I started belly dancing, sometimes members of the general public or even other dancers would say, "Didn't belly dance get its stat in the sultan's harem ..." and conclude with that "fat Sultan" story. I couldn't believe how stupid and offensive it was even then, so now I know where it came from.

Of course, ideas like this come from people who have no idea how the baseline phenomenon of solo-improvised dance is practiced by men and women widely all over the Middle East ... they think of belly dance as a sedutive dance by women, and come up with all sorts of nonsense to explain it.

Here's what I said in a Habibi article ages ago:
But simple origin stories can't possibly work. What such explanations would have you believe is that for centuries, for millennia, throughout the Middle East, North Africa, Southern Europe, and India, no one did this dance or anything like it, until somehow, for some reason, a harem girl, priestess or midwife got the idea of dancing in aid of her goal (whether pleasing the sultan, worshipping the goddess or getting the baby born). After that, other harem girls, priestesses or midwives followed suit. And despite the fact that there are few harem girls, priestesses and dancing midwives around today, they somehow transferred their perceptions and their artistry to us.

Put that way it sounds absurd. And it is absurd. If we are looking for the origins of this dance, we have to look for a story that is more complex than a sultan's dancing girl or a single kind of ritual. We have to look at a whole, complicated, interchanging, developing world of many different kinds of dance, and we have to recognize that in some ways what we do today is unique and unlike what was done in the past.

In Search of the Origins of Dance

The only good thing I can say about all this mythic history we have now is that it seems to have largely driven out the harem girl crap, and I would rather be a moon priestess than a harem girl any day ...

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"I am not contradictory, I am dispersed." (Roland Barthes)

Brea

Andrea- I'd rather be neither! I like your comment though. The myths in the bellydance world seem to be perpetuated by some bellydancers as well. That is where the largest difficulty lies. For instance, look at Khanajar, who has been trying to find some reasonable information about the dance, but there are a million websites with the wrong information on them. What do we do about that, is my question? So many students have also encountered this problem that I feel like throwing up my hands. I myself have had difficulty finding websites with accurate information just for my own reading. I enjoy both this forum and bhuz as this kind of discussion goes on and we can all learn from it.

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www.breamorgiane.com

Jane

Someone recently gave me a six page paper handout called "Chengir's Lecture on Historical Dance of Islam". I don't know who Chengir is but they quote Curt Sachs a lot especially in regard to Mother Goddess dance. I've read/heard that Curt Sachs is a very inaccurate and outdated source. How about his books on historical music? Are they better? Chengir also mixes Paleolithic fertility rituals, Indian dance, old Ottoman and modern Arabic dance with wild abandon. Why do people mix Indian dance with Middle Eastern dances and belly dance? Are they connected at all? Am I missing a vital link? Is this a case of "let's dump everything from over there together"?

I got my "Orientalism, Transnationalism, & Harem Fantasy" yesterday afternoon. I was up until 2AM. I'm dragging butt as a result, and I'd rather sit here on the forum instead of doing my vacuuming.