Brea

You'd think so (that they were sharing) but I doubt it. I've often wondered how they were able to walk, let alone participate in clever repartee. Perhaps they shared with their lackeys (who never make it into the movies, which is weird because they're very important to the story). Even so, with wine at every single meal I'd think they'd be staggering about...but I guess that's what adventure stories are for.

__________________
www.breamorgiane.com

Kharmine

In my experience, there are two types of people who hold onto the myths about belly dance:

1) those who truly don't know that there is no real, accepted substantiation to the myths,

2) those who know otherwise, but prefer the myths for whatever reason

A big reason for the continuing popularity of this mythology is that our societies still tend to lean toward the patriarchal.

Many of us grew up with history textbooks that ignored or minimized the contributions of those who were not male, straight, white and gentile/Protestant. Many of us grew up in a religion that emphasized God's patriarchal qualities over the matriarchal, although these same religions acknowledge a God that is neither male nor female.

The harm that these influences can do makes many of us yearn for the opposite.

Another reason is that professional belly dance (whether in performance or teaching or promotion) is as competitive as anything else. There are people who have made names for themselves promoting concepts that have nothing to do with facts and they are, understandably, reluctant to have those concepts challenged. They will fight anything and anybody that counters their agenda.

Whatever the reason: There is good research out there that would counter the fuffbunny myths and restore a more balanced and accurate view of history, including religious history. We have to seek it, test it, encourage it and promote it whenever we find it, whenever the silly fluffbunny waves its cute lil' ears.

There are three books that I recommend over and over -- I won't say they're the last words on the subjects, but they're reasonable tools to start with:

1) "The Myth of Matriarchal Prehishistory: Why an Invented Past Won't Give Women A Future", by Cynthia Eller (associate professor of women and religion at Montclair State University in New Jersey - Cynthia Eller - ). She tracks down how the matriarchal history myths developed, who and what was behind them, and why they are not factual.

2) "The Triumph of the Moon: A History of Modern Pagan Witchcraft" by Ronald Hutton (British historian, a publication of the Oxford University Press). Hutton examines the myths that propel the fluffbunny in some of today's pagan belief systems, some of whom have fostered the myths in feminist and belly dance history beliefs, as well.

3) "Pagans & Christians," by Robin Lane Fox (fellow of New Oxford College, Oxford), about how Christianity came to dominate the Mediterranean world as counter to fluffbunny myths that it was due strictly to forcible takeover of the pagan world by all those nasty patriarchal types.

Why I particularly like these books (besides their obvious scholarship), is that they do not disparage sincere and honorable feminists, pagans or others who are looking to fill in the gaps of patriarchal-based history.

I'm sure there are more good books and articles out there, and I encourage y'all to bring 'em up so we can look at 'em, compare 'em and build up a body of references we can use to fight the fluffbunny.

__________________
What if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about?

Brea

Hi Kharmine,

THOSE are the books I was trying to find a while back! Can you elaborate on the last one? I am curious about this in relation to the Scots/Irish mythology as well.

I agree that there are many people who have made their names on 'fluff' and also those who DO know better but prefer the myth anyway. Truth is always unpopular, as far as I can see. (I am also PMing you).

__________________
www.breamorgiane.com

Shanazel

Groups that exist along the lines of goddess dance:

1) People who are drawn to belly dance because they are convinced it is originally connected to worship of the Great Goddess, and they are eager to feel part of some long standing time honored tradition. These are often the same people who have claimed to be descendants of a long line of persecuted witches, even when solid genealogy shows them to have good Reform Jews or Presbyterians for ancestors. These folks either really believe their fantasies, or want so much to believe them that they are willing to ignore all evidence to the contrary in order to feed their hearts and/or egos.

2) People who combine belly dance with their own beliefs in Her, creating a form of worship or ritual that they recognize as modern, but which is no less sincere for the lack of antiquity.

And I suppose I should add a third group, the one that really frosts my apricots:

3) People who combine belly dance and goddess worship in order to sell books, tapes, and dvds. They don't give a rip about either spirituality or dance, but know that therein lies the way to profit.

Andrea Deagon

A'isha, with respect to Egyptian goddesses, I wasn't implying that no Egyptian goddess has "mother" as one of her aspects. Only that there is no monolithic "mother goddess" in ancient Egypt (primarily because the idea of a monolithic mother goddess is a modern construct). Isis and Hathor both have significant function as mothers, both (interestingly) as mother of Horus (since Egyptian mythology has a fluidity that the systems more familiar in Western culture don't).

I'm teaching a seminar next semester, "Goddesses of the Ancient Mediterranean and Middle East," where one of our goals is to create a class web page with a good, coherent introduction to the main goddesses of these areas, with the hope that some good introductory materials will be welcome to net surfers who are interested but don't want the new age bs. (Wish us luck). What I try to drill into all my Classics students is "know the evidence you're drawing on" -- that alone makes a huge difference in your thought processes.

Kharmine, thanks for the books. Another interesting one is The Bible Without Theology, I think the athor's name is Richard Oden. He has a very good chapter on sacred prostitutes (as in, there weren't any).

What I hate about this goddessy stuff, since it impinges on my professional life, is that the soft-headed new agey goddess material actually distracts people from the real issues of feminist archeology and history. Also it puts feminist authors in the position of bashing goddess stuff, like the patriarchs who do it for a different reason. I have been accused of being a traitor to the feminist cause because I promote the idea that belly dance did not originate in "goddess days." It's hard to tear down myths and build up the alternative approaches, since the real issues and methods in women's history can be hard for the average person to grasp. "Ancient Mother Goddess," on the other hand, is a ridiculously easy concept. Really understanding any of the goddesses of those times and places is challenging and difficult.

__________________
"I am not contradictory, I am dispersed." (Roland Barthes)

Aisha Azar

Dear Andrea,



It is not that there were not ancient mother goddesses, but that, I somehow think goddesses and gods were much more human in ancient times, if that makes sense!! Not quite as twinkly and loving and ideal as people tend to make them nowadays.
Regards,
A'isha

Brea

I wish I could take that class, Andrea! I have one more semester and I'm done (one of the requirements is to take a history class on the Middle East). Darn!

Shanazel: I like the term 'frosts my apricots'. I've also encountered those who aren't particularly into the Mother Goddess exactly but a sort of generic 'the universe tells us' belief and they tend to go for the goddess-centric vids as well.

__________________
www.breamorgiane.com

Shanazel

Royalties for using the phrase are very reasonable, Brea.

maylynn

One thing that isn't particularly goddess-related but angered me GREATLY was a section in a recent book by Desmond Morris that I read last year... I have read most of his books and have always admired his zoological and anthropological work, since he was the first to make that crossover observing human behaviour as a zoologist would (which was very contentious at the time), and also being one of the first pop-science writers. He's written a whole lot of books and also had TV series on the Discovery Channel, "The Human Animal" and "The Human Sexes"...possibly also others.

HOWEVER:
This book "The Naked Woman" (he also did "The Naked Man", both are updated versions released in 2005 or so of "The Naked Ape" which was one of his early works in the 1970s), very nicely gives a head to toe summary of how perfectly evolved the female form is (albeit obviously written by an old British man - charming but a bit confused). Still, I thought it was a nice revision of the Naked Ape.

But one bit talks about bellydance (in either the hips or belly section of the book). Dr. Morris states that bellydance originated not only to seduce men, but to seduce one man - the Sultan - and since the Sultan was usually old and fat, bellydance originated in order for harem girls to (in a nutshell) get him off while the woman was on top since he was too old and fat to move. He says that bellydancers like to prudishly believe otherwise, but that's really how it happened.

I was shocked. Appalled. Enraged enough to want to write him a letter demanding to know his sources (since conveniently for that little section, there were none). I'd still like to, but haven't had the time.

I guess writing pop science is different from publishing in a peer-reviewed scientific journal - but there go over 35 years of credibility out the window in my opinion, Dr. Morris.

__________________
http://www.urbanamazon.co.uk

belly_dancer

ok MayLynn.... YOUR job is to GET a viable address for old Desi... & we will ALL write to inquire sources.... right girls?... (ahhhemmm... I mean WOMEN!)