Myths and Misconceptions - Page 2

cathy · 02-10-2008, 01:10 PM

Morocco has written about the evidence she encountered for the connection between two of the movements found in Oriental dance and birth rituals. Check out the articles on her website at: casbahdance.org.

I know Andrea Deagon has mentioned previously on this forum that she is working on an ancient origins of the precursors of this dance.

What I tend to think is that the origins of social dancing and the origins of spiritual or religious dancing are so ancient that we will never be able to figure out which came first. Perhaps in those days the distinction would not even have been meaningful?

There is a lot of fantasy and theatricalized goddess worship, sacred rite, phaoronic dance out there. This is fine as long as we are clear about the difference between what we know about the historical evidence and what we are conjecturing, making up, and acting out fantasies about. I would think you could explain this to students interested in goddess dance in a way that would be both honest and gentle.

There are also lots of folk dances and rituals (Guedra, Zar) where the historical basis is much better known for how they were and are actually performed in cultures of origin. Therefore it is possible to perform both more authentic and more theatricalized versions.

Then there is Dervish, which has its religious ritual form and its theatricalized entertainment form (can't remember what this is called at the moment--colorful skirts, flags, Egyptian form?)

P.S. Tannoura is what this is called

Cathy

Aniseteph · 02-10-2008, 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brea

A question regarding the goddess issue: how do we teach this so it is unoffensive to students who have come to learn for that reason?

You can always resort to the advertising cliche "believed by many to...." !

I don't buy into the ancient stuff (did you notice?

); how can anyone tell what went on in mystic temples or what dance goddesses did on their way through the realms of the spirits etc etc?

But I do believe that taking up belly dance can have very positive effects on self-esteem, body-image etc. and open up a world where it's OK to dress up and be gorgeous and get lost in beautiful music and dance your heart out*, and I suppose if you are into the inner goddess thing then yes, there's your goddess aspect. But it's a personal thing, an interpretation the individual brings to the dance rather than some mystic aspect of belly dance, certainly not something a teacher should be foisting on her students. IMO it should be up to the student whether she is doing a vertical 8 as a symbol of infinity and oneness with the universe, a fertility dance, a nice hip move, or an interesting interplay of various muscle groups.

My interpretation is that it ticks a lot of deep down psychological needs for me as a person. If anyone wants to look at it as feeding/finding the inner goddess that's great, but it doesn't give them license to make stuff up about priestesses.

* this bit could apply to someone discovering his inner drag queen and singing Barbra Streisand karaoke, but you don't see many people getting goddessy and mystical about that. Or maybe you do and I just move in the wrong circles

cathy · 02-10-2008, 03:28 PM

I read a theory that dance and music co-evolved--or even that dance is the older art form, based on the idea that dance might have been done to the accompaniment of simple drumming possibly without melody.

If this is true then I think it's possible to imagine that dance could be the oldest form of social bonding ritual other than mating and hunting. If this is so then it is probably a deep instinct. And in Western cultures we are very cut off from this instinct from the most part. We have to seek it out. There are disco nightclubs, college parties, raves, classes, and performances, but very little dance as part of normal social gatherings. In my experience anyway. I NEVER saw anyone in my family dance ever. I don't remember seeing any friend dance until college parties. (And I can't remember anyone singing in my family except for way back when I was tiny my mom would sing nursery songs when she put me to bed).

So Aniseteph when you say it ticks deep psychological points for you, I agree it does for me too and my theory is that I was put in touch with this instinct only at the relatively late age of 37 or so (when I started MED).

I can well imagine how some might take this feeling to mean they were enacting ancient priestess rites, especially when combined with coming from a culture that is known to be one of the world's oldest and (to the West) one of the longest romanticized.

Goddess worship and ancient temple priestess dreams are not my cup of tea but hey, we all find our own meaning in everything we do. Again as long as we realize what is coming from our dreams vs. from reality, no problem.

I like the drag queen bit too. Cathy

Brea · 02-10-2008, 03:38 PM

Hi,

I don't know why but I have this feeling that the birthing ritual was written about as mythology as well...somewhere. I have already read Morocco's articles. I suppose I have to say I take a lot of things about this dance with a grain of salt; I tend to listen to Arabic people when they tell me about it, and none of them I've ever known has said that (because why would men do it, then, you see?) It's hard to know for certain. I think the sensuality of it is the only thing that is really solid...AND that there is no goddess basis of the dance.

The thing is, the goddess stuff is doubly frustrating for me because I am also a Scottish historian...too many times when people find this out they immediately ask me if I've read the Mists of Avalon. *SIIGH!* I hope that it is self-evident why this annoys me. Anyway, I seem to have chosen the two things in life to be passionate about where I will always have to deal with people who think the goddess stuff about it. I tend to be rather harsh in general and if I get people like that in my classes they will be told, outright, that this is not the true history. Maybe I'm just shooting myself in the foot there; so many people make a lot of money selling this warrior goddess bellydance image. That's actually the part I really can't stand, that other teachers use this as a method of moneymaking and instruction, sending people out into the world without any idea at all about the true background of this dance.

Hyacinth · 02-12-2008, 03:12 PM

A girl at work found out I do bellydance & wanted me to show her some moves. While I was demonstrating some horizontal figure 8's, she asked me, all shy like, "Is it true that you have to pretend you've got a pencil in there and you're drawing a figure 8?" "In where???" She points to vaginal area. Um, no!

So after that I felt compelled to give this pretending thing a try. I pretended to draw a figure 8, hell I pretended to sign my name and draw a smiley face to boot. I guess it could work -anyone else heard of this?

Sorry if this is a bit off topic but it sounded like a myth to me!

Brea · 02-12-2008, 04:24 PM

HAHAHA Hyacinth!!! I laughed so hard when I read that! I'v never heard it but it certainly is an interesting response to guys writing their names in the snow!

Mya · 02-12-2008, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyacinth

So after that I felt compelled to give this pretending thing a try. I pretended to draw a figure 8, hell I pretended to sign my name and draw a smiley face to boot.

i swear i almost fell off my chair with that one. that was great. i haven't laughed that hard in ages. AGES!

lizaj · 02-12-2008, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hyacinth

A girl at work found out I do bellydance & wanted me to show her some moves. While I was demonstrating some horizontal figure 8's, she asked me, all shy like, "Is it true that you have to pretend you've got a pencil in there and you're drawing a figure 8?" "In where???" She points to vaginal area. Um, no!

So after that I felt compelled to give this pretending thing a try. I pretended to draw a figure 8, hell I pretended to sign my name and draw a smiley face to boot. I guess it could work -anyone else heard of this?

Sorry if this is a bit off topic but it sounded like a myth to me!

Ah yes the pencil in the privates...quoted on an ancient UK belly dance instruction DVD...well ancient as in a coupla decades ago!

Aniseteph · 02-12-2008, 06:53 PM

Maybe it's a British thing - my teacher mentioned it too (amongst other less

ideas) as a way of getting the hang of hip circles. Any one else heard f@^^y-over-the-fence as a strategy for learning reverse undulations?

Must be a Brit thing because it's useless for reverse undulations in the US

Sorry, this is off topic. Can't think of anything else, we did navel jewels somewhere else.... how about the dance-to-please-your-sultan thing?

karena · 02-12-2008, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aniseteph

Maybe it's a British thing - my teacher mentioned it too (amongst other less

ideas) as a way of getting the hang of hip circles. Any one else heard f@^^y-over-the-fence as a strategy for learning reverse undulations?

Must be a Brit thing because it's useless for reverse undulations in the US

I've never heard the pencil thing, but my main teacher isn't very old skool. But at least it communicates that the movement is internal not just skeletal, doesn't it?

And yes I've heard the f@^^y-over-the-fence, but I did wonder if it was American as f@^^y isn't offensive in American English. I suppose it depends where the fence is

I remember trying to figure it out and then must have needed to concentrate in class again

02-10-2008, 01:10 PM	#11 (permalink)
cathy Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Brooklyn, New York Posts: 426	Morocco has written about the evidence she encountered for the connection between two of the movements found in Oriental dance and birth rituals. Check out the articles on her website at: casbahdance.org. I know Andrea Deagon has mentioned previously on this forum that she is working on an ancient origins of the precursors of this dance. What I tend to think is that the origins of social dancing and the origins of spiritual or religious dancing are so ancient that we will never be able to figure out which came first. Perhaps in those days the distinction would not even have been meaningful? There is a lot of fantasy and theatricalized goddess worship, sacred rite, phaoronic dance out there. This is fine as long as we are clear about the difference between what we know about the historical evidence and what we are conjecturing, making up, and acting out fantasies about. I would think you could explain this to students interested in goddess dance in a way that would be both honest and gentle. There are also lots of folk dances and rituals (Guedra, Zar) where the historical basis is much better known for how they were and are actually performed in cultures of origin. Therefore it is possible to perform both more authentic and more theatricalized versions. Then there is Dervish, which has its religious ritual form and its theatricalized entertainment form (can't remember what this is called at the moment--colorful skirts, flags, Egyptian form?) P.S. Tannoura is what this is called Cathy Last edited by cathy; 02-10-2008 at 03:15 PM. Reason: added P.S.

02-10-2008, 03:38 PM	#14 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	Hi, I don't know why but I have this feeling that the birthing ritual was written about as mythology as well...somewhere. I have already read Morocco's articles. I suppose I have to say I take a lot of things about this dance with a grain of salt; I tend to listen to Arabic people when they tell me about it, and none of them I've ever known has said that (because why would men do it, then, you see?) It's hard to know for certain. I think the sensuality of it is the only thing that is really solid...AND that there is no goddess basis of the dance. The thing is, the goddess stuff is doubly frustrating for me because I am also a Scottish historian...too many times when people find this out they immediately ask me if I've read the Mists of Avalon. SIIGH! I hope that it is self-evident why this annoys me. Anyway, I seem to have chosen the two things in life to be passionate about where I will always have to deal with people who think the goddess stuff about it. I tend to be rather harsh in general and if I get people like that in my classes they will be told, outright, that this is not the true history. Maybe I'm just shooting myself in the foot there; so many people make a lot of money selling this warrior goddess bellydance image. That's actually the part I really can't stand, that other teachers use this as a method of moneymaking and instruction, sending people out into the world without any idea at all about the true background of this dance. __________________ www.breamorgiane.com

02-12-2008, 03:12 PM	#15 (permalink)
Hyacinth Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 50	A girl at work found out I do bellydance & wanted me to show her some moves. While I was demonstrating some horizontal figure 8's, she asked me, all shy like, "Is it true that you have to pretend you've got a pencil in there and you're drawing a figure 8?" "In where???" She points to vaginal area. Um, no! So after that I felt compelled to give this pretending thing a try. I pretended to draw a figure 8, hell I pretended to sign my name and draw a smiley face to boot. I guess it could work -anyone else heard of this? Sorry if this is a bit off topic but it sounded like a myth to me! Last edited by Hyacinth; 02-12-2008 at 03:14 PM. Reason: add extra

02-12-2008, 04:24 PM	#16 (permalink)
Brea V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: USA Posts: 1,283	HAHAHA Hyacinth!!! I laughed so hard when I read that! I'v never heard it but it certainly is an interesting response to guys writing their names in the snow! __________________ www.breamorgiane.com

02-10-2008, 03:28 PM	#13 (permalink)
cathy Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Brooklyn, New York Posts: 426	I read a theory that dance and music co-evolved--or even that dance is the older art form, based on the idea that dance might have been done to the accompaniment of simple drumming possibly without melody. If this is true then I think it's possible to imagine that dance could be the oldest form of social bonding ritual other than mating and hunting. If this is so then it is probably a deep instinct. And in Western cultures we are very cut off from this instinct from the most part. We have to seek it out. There are disco nightclubs, college parties, raves, classes, and performances, but very little dance as part of normal social gatherings. In my experience anyway. I NEVER saw anyone in my family dance ever. I don't remember seeing any friend dance until college parties. (And I can't remember anyone singing in my family except for way back when I was tiny my mom would sing nursery songs when she put me to bed). So Aniseteph when you say it ticks deep psychological points for you, I agree it does for me too and my theory is that I was put in touch with this instinct only at the relatively late age of 37 or so (when I started MED). I can well imagine how some might take this feeling to mean they were enacting ancient priestess rites, especially when combined with coming from a culture that is known to be one of the world's oldest and (to the West) one of the longest romanticized. Goddess worship and ancient temple priestess dreams are not my cup of tea but hey, we all find our own meaning in everything we do. Again as long as we realize what is coming from our dreams vs. from reality, no problem. I like the drag queen bit too. Cathy

02-12-2008, 06:53 PM	#19 (permalink)
Aniseteph V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Sussex, England Posts: 1,703	Maybe it's a British thing - my teacher mentioned it too (amongst other less ideas) as a way of getting the hang of hip circles. Any one else heard f@^^y-over-the-fence as a strategy for learning reverse undulations? Must be a Brit thing because it's useless for reverse undulations in the US Sorry, this is off topic. Can't think of anything else, we did navel jewels somewhere else.... how about the dance-to-please-your-sultan thing?