Originally Posted by cathy

For most of us on this forum, studying and/or performing this dance means studying or performing a dance from a foreign culture. A lot of the issues we get into on this forum are related to this. Are we approaching it from an awareness of the culture of origin and a respectful attititude to the culture it comes from, and so on. It becomes even a little more complicated for us to deal with when to some degree this dance is regarded in a complex and not entirely respectful light in its countries of origin.

A'isha writes- One of MY issues with the dance is that many westerners are always trying to clean it up, turn it into an art form like ballet. Why? They need to look at the dance squarely in the eye and see it for what it is. If they want to make it something else, then do not call it belly dance. There is nothing wrong with good fusion, but it still makes the dance something else.

I've heard it said that Americans in particular have very little history or depth of culture to draw from and that may be a reason why we seek meaning from other cultures. I think other cultural traditions can be approached respectfully and even elements from them can be responsibly and tastefully incorporated into a "fusion" culture if you will, established by conscious choice. This is why I think it's OK for us to study and appreciate Oriental dance without necessarily agreeing with other Middle Eastern traditional attitudes. The same would go in reverse.

A'isha writes- First, every group who lives in a place for a long time has a history and culture. ( I often wished this for myself and made sure my daughter has a place that is really REALLY her home and culture.) I agree whole heartedly with what you say above, except that Americans do indeed have their own cultures, from region to region.

But if we are entirely honest isn't the the starting point of interest sometimes the appeal of the exotic, or at least something that seems *different* from what we are used to?

A'isha writes- Yes, in many cases. I was fortunate in that my father lived in the Middle East, had Arab friends and had this wonderful radio that allowed us to listen to music from all over the world, when I was a kid. My father LOVED music and he was a great dancer. He passed these two passions on to me.

What I am wondering about is how much of the appeal for Middle Eastern dancers in the West is *because* it is foreign. I'm not saying that this is a bad reason to be attracted to it. Does the feeling ever "wear off"? I tend to think that no matter how long I were to study Arabic or listen to Middle Eastern music, it is never going to sound as natural to me as what I grew up with. Not saying that this is a bad thing, just a fact. After about five years of increasing exposure, it sounds a lot more familiar and "friendly" and therefore less exotic, but Farid or Hossam Ramsay or even Amr Diab is never going to bring back knee-jerk memories and have me singing along in my head despite my efforts not to within the first chord the way the Eagles, Bruce Springsteen, or The Dead can.

A'isha writes- I am not sure if it was because of my Dad's choices of music or because I have been dancing for so long, but Arab music sounds as natural to me as the Beatles, and I have just as visceral a response, even when I do not know all the words. ( I have to admit that sometimes I don't understand all the words to English songs either!!)

When the appeal is itself the exotic I think there is a risk of some kind. I'm having trouble articulating it. Something to do with falling in love with our own ideas of ourselves in a role instead of seeing the form in and of itself. Seeing what we want to see, or clinging onto misinterpretations of the idea that spring from where we are coming from.

A'isha writes- Yes, and this is a real danger to authentic dance unless those ideas and concepts of self are clearly defined as something separate from authentic ethnic dance. This is exactly what I have been saying all along.

It's like little boys who think "I want to fight like Bruce Lee, he's cool" and then finding the karate master wants them to learn katas and tells them the ideal in karate is never to have to fight. But they can't see the glamour in that, it seems really boring and tedious and hard work for nothing. The little boys still want to fight like Bruce Lee, cause he looks cool. (No disrespect meant to any karate students OR Bruce Lee fans here. Both things CAN be true. My husband is a second degree black belt in go-jyu ru and he appreciates Bruce Lee movies. I'm just talking about negotiating this.)

A'isha writes- This is a wonderful analogy!! I think when people begin to understanding the realities of the dance, they are often put off by it, either because of its social standing in both East and West,or because of its complexity as a cultural form. In either case, they begin to see reasons why they feel better creating a fantasy than dealing with the reality. There is nothing wrong with the fantasy as long as it is clearly, visibly defined as such. You are looking at an issue that has caused me a lot of grief over the years, and I think, seeing it, and expressing it very well.
Regards, and respect,
A'isha


Cathy

Originally Posted by cathy

Dear A'isha,

Well the US has only been a country about 230 years, all founded by immigrants of course, and Americans tend to move around a lot within the country, not staying near family as often as some other cultures. My parents settled in the Deep South when I was five so I grew up there and still visit them there, and I never felt Southern. I'm not too crazy about some so-called "American values" either....

A'isha writes- I am part American Indian. Some of my ancestors would argue that this is a land much older. As I once told a Saudi, whose current "country" is less than 100 years old, the soil under us and the fact that the lands have been peopled for a very long time, makes our countries equally old.

But on to the more burning question. How can a person who is deluding her or himself about the authentic nature of the dance know this and root it out?

A'isha writes- By stepping out of old thinking patterns about what the dance is "supposed" to be. By listening to and watching the people from whom the dance comes, and by comparing what is seen from native dancers and others, in order to begin to see the difference. Be prepared to spend the rest of your dance life doing this. Don't listen to what people SAY they are doing, WATCH what they are doing.

What about teachers of Middle Eastern dance in the West? I dare say there are some out there deeply rooted in the fantasy (and ego) to various degrees but believe they are doing and teaching the real thing. How are their students supposed to figure out the truth?

A'isha writes- By the method described above.This is a study that often involves looking past one's own teachers and other western colleagues, no matter how beloved, and looking into the heart of the dance and the people ( because they are not separate things), from being around natives and from watching native dancers. That is where the "truth" lies if we are talking about authentic ethnic belly dance.

Would it be enough if a person from the Middle East, who had seen many many dancers, said I danced with authentic Middle Eastern feeling and response to the music? Or do I have to hold certain beliefs as well?

A'isha writes- No, because just like other people, this one person may have an ulterior motive. If you hear it consistently from many sources, THEN begin to take it to heart, but do not stop and rest on your laurels because there is always, always something else to learn. I am not sure what you mean here by holding certain beliefs. Could you explain?

I feel like my eye or taste or whatever has developed to the point where I can tell if something looks jarring, overdone, out of place, but how can I know that it is the real aesthetic or just my own, since I will never BE Middle Eastern?

A'isha writes- Not all people will develop what it takes to tell what is Middle Eastern and what is not. Some people, like me, have developed that ability for certain kinds of dances, but not for others. For example, I have very little skill in recognizing the difference between good and bad Turkish or Greek folkloric dance. But I can sure tell you about Egyptian and Gulf/Saudi dance. ( I also never, ever trust anyone who is trying to lead me to believe they have expertise in all of it, because no one does!!!) One can be not Middle Eastern and still have an amazing capacity for inherent understanding of some aspect of Middle Eastern-ness.

Regards,
A'isha


Thanks, Cathy

Originally Posted by cathy

To my knowledge that US or American culture did not absorb or appropriate any aspects of Native American (Indian) culture into its own except arguably certain foodstuffs (just a matter of what could be caught or cultivated here) but in the beginning did its best to corral it onto reservations. That may be changing now. But I have hardly had any exposure to Native American cultures though I have lived here all my life.

A'isha writes- Having lived in every part of the U.S., I can safely say that even in the larger cities, cultures differ from one area to the other, and that across the nation, there are vast cultural differences.


Dance-wise, I'm talking about stripping away fantasy to get at the real. Mother goddess origin seems speculation at best to me, delusion at worst. On the balance, a waste of time.

A'isha- Agreed

By holding certain beliefs I meant that I acknowledge the reputation that this dance and dancers have in the Middle East, the view that it is improper, low-class, not a suitable profession for one's relations, etc. But I do not agree with it. Does this get in the way of my being able to do and see this dance in a Middle Eastern way? I assume that professional dancers in the Middle East today also disagree with it, come to think of it.

A'isha writes- If you mean to "uplift" a dance that is not classical, or give the dance a different take than in its own cultures of origin, then yes, you are going to have problems doing the dance in a Middle Eastern way. I think that in reality, Middle Eastern dancers go into the dance knowing full well how it is viewed, and deciding to do the rebellious thing and become a dancer anyway. I see some of them, even the famous ones, really playing up the sexual qualities of the dance, again knowing full well how the dance is viewed by many members of the society. The other side of this coin is that many people in the Middle East adore belly dancing, though they may not think much of belly dancers! Also, what people say and do in public is often quite different from their private views. And, we have to realize that attitudes toward dance are a part of a much larger cultural context, you know, the one that so many people try to ignore!!
My own personal feelings, I think, rather mimic the feelings of the native dancers. I acknowledge that the dance in context of the culture is considered low class, naughty, etc and I accept that. However, when I dance, I also do not make their feelings about it my focus. Neither do I try to hide the sexual nature of the dance behind something more socially acceptable. I dance the dance and let it be what it is.
Regards,
A'isha

Cathy