cathy

Aziyade--thanks for clarifying ethnicity vs. culture. (I think this is partly how the conversation got mysteriously derailed on the Native American side-issue.) I look forward to hearing more.

A'isha--thanks for your views on "exotic" and interesting that "Baharat" means spices! The point you made about fantasies and permission is also interesting. I would agree that the thing about fantasies is that we have complete control over the outcome and don't need permission from anyone else but I have noticed that there are issues related to permission or lack thereof within a lot of fantasies. People still can have issues giving *themselves* permission and hence some fantasies revolve around the very issues of control, permission, choice, etc. "Slave girl" fantasies or rape or bondage fantasies come immediately to mind. In the fantasy the person is "forced" to behave a certain way or "has no choice" and that is what makes it possible to enjoy the situation. Or there are dreams or fantasies where one person or situation gives way to another. Such as "I was dreaming of making out with X (say, my wife) when suddenly she turned into Y (say, my boss/mother/the babysitter)" or other versions of "suddenly I found myself doing Z." In these fantasies the permission and responsibility issues are removed and I think that's a significant part of the point.

Cathy

Shanazel

"Exotic" implies mystery and romance, among other things. The Coffee Dance hints at Ali Baba and Arabian nights and all the wonderful tales we read in childhood. Like Aziyade, many people find Scotland exotic, but they are often thinking of the Highlands and all the bue bonnets are o'er the border, and not the borderlands where life was basically brutal, short, and a constant fight for survival among quick tempered folks who left Scotland to antagonize the natives of Ireland and America. (Alas, I do not come from exotic people.) Maybe what is exotic to us is our fantasy of what something is like? And that is a question, not a statement, by the way.

I have tried to think what originally attracted me to belly dance, and I always come back to two things: a magazine article about 1966 in Cosmopolitan Magazine (of all places) that featured gorgeous pictures of a professional dancer and seeing Anoush dance at the student union at Cal State Fresno about 1973. Both times, I had the same immediate and passionate reaction: I want to do that. I loved ballet, but it was the kind of dance that whispered to me (and lots of times it was whispering, "You aren't thin enough). But belly dance reached out, grabbed me, shook me up, and altered my perceptions and passions for life. Was it because it was exotic? I don't know. I really don't. I do know that when I started dancing, I didn't give a hoot whether anyone ever saw me dance or not; I just wanted to learn this dance to fill something inside me.

Aisha Azar

Dear Shanazel,
In truth, what first attracted me to belly dance was the feeling that I got watching a line of dancers on a stage with the hot sun beating on them and watching them move sinuously in the heat. Since childhood, I had a special feeling when I would walk down the street on a hot day, the sun shining on my movement. I felt like a big cat looks when slowly meandering, muscles moving loosely under skin, heat beating down on me. The first time I ever saw a dancer it was like, "YES, I know that, I feel that, I am that!" Erotic, exotic, yet real and mundane at the same time. Not a fantasy, but a feeling that is surely there in all of life.
Regards,
A'isha

Kharmine

I have to come back to this because I don't think I made it clear the first time that I think the question of "cultural appropriation" is perfectly, uh, appropriate, and cathy makes some good points, which should be raised in any thoughtful group of artists.

However, IMHO, "appropriation" is a little like theft -- it's taking something that doesn't "belong" to one and claiming it for one's own, usually with one's own interpretation that ignores or distorts the original. It's "borrowing" without consideration of the context, without respect for the people and culture(s) it sprang from -- taking without asking, in effect.

We've seen centuries of people borrowing from their neighbors' cultures that which they find interesting, fun and/or helpful, without diluting their own cultural identities. That is exactly how belly dance came to be, in its different styles. Dancers of different cultures shared what they knew, and a new fusion sprang up as a result.

The fact that "cultural borrowing" is still going on today is no reason for alarm unless it is done dishonestly and disrespectfully. The lure of the "exotic" is nothing shameful -- it's been making the world go 'round for eons and has done much to overcome what might otherwise be fear of the "exotic," of the different and unfamiliar.

__________________
What if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about?

adiemus

No disrespect meant, but I am *still* laughing at the idea of anyone 'fetishising' the irish jig!!

Kharmine I am so with you - cultural borrowing goes on all the time, it's just when people call something 'authentic' when it has clearly adopted things from another place, another time, then it gets disrespectful. I also worry that in time the specific movement repertoire will gradually be reduced. I understand that some of the folkloric dances have lost many movements that used to be commonplace as the dancers became more aware of 'what the public wants' and borrowed things from other people.

Exotic is a stunning word! It's exactly what this dance is to me - the definition of exotic:
exotic 1599, "belonging to another country," from L. exoticus, from Gk. exotikos "foreign," lit. "from the outside," from exo- "outside," from ex "out of." Sense of "unusual, strange" first recorded in Eng. 1629, from notion of "alien, outlandish." In reference to strip-teasers and dancing girls, it is first attested 1954, Amer.Eng. This is from Dictionary.com

Cheers
Bronnie

__________________
He wahine, he taonga- Every woman is a treasure(Maori proverb)

Aisha Azar

Dear Adiemus,
Or when people imply, without actually saying it outright, that what they are doing has a provenance that it does not have, or let the audience believe that what they are doing is somehow traditional or authentic when it is not, or try to brush off the cultural filter without taking it into context as the very thing that gives a dance, music, art, etc, its soul, essence and spirit and definition.
I have the same worries, but for belly dance as well as the folkloric dances.
Regards,
A'isha

catwomyn

Is it still cultural appropriation if the root culture is rejecting the dance? As conservatism rises in the Middle East, belly dancers are being suppressed and pushed out, even in family celebrations. Another pressure is young people who see the traditional belly dance and folk dances as old-fashioned.

Aisha Azar

Dear Catwomyn,
Throughout history, arts and artists have been "rejected" by the general society. What is usually left unsaid is that even in the process of rejection comes notoriety for the rejected art and artist. I see very little sign that Arabs or Turks are rejecting belly dance. The fact that new dancers in native countries come along and are made famous is proof that the art still exists, and is still popular in countries of origin. This dance, like anything else, goes through phases where it is more popular or less popular, but it is certainly not dying out. I consider the whole "belly dance is dying in countries of origin" myth to be one more way in which the West is doing an appropriation and giving themselves permission to do what they want with the dance. And in the process, they get to believe they are heroes, saving some element of the dance from sure extinction. Oh please!!
Regards,
A'isha

gypsy8522

Catwomyn,

Is your claim coming from participant observation of the 'root culture' of the dance, or is it something that you read online in a belly dance article? Because what you are saying is certainly not true in reality. I agree that it is a myth. However, I think some people are intentionally circulating false statements about belly dancing and saying that it is no longer a part of Middle Eastern culture, so that they can legitimize their personal interest and claims. This way they can do whatever they wish with it, without having to face any questions or criticism that can make them look like arrogant people who don't really care about the integrity of the art they are presenting. And if they are asked, they will say they are actually doing the Middle East a favor by "adopting" its dying culture. So, if belly dancing is dead in the Middle East, even in familly celebrations, what do the Middle Eastern people dance then?

FYI there is a belly dance competition show running on one of the major arabic networks at the moment. I don't think they would invest tens of thousands of dollars on decor and costumes if their would be no audience. The majority of people who watch these type of shows are young people.
The classical dancing in the form of a movie scene is old fashioned, but the dance itself is not.

There is also two new TV channels which have been created exclusively for dance, so that viewers can watch belly dancing 24/7. Again, I don't think millions would be invested in such networks if they didn't have much of an appeal. The only way belly dancing could die in the Middle East if the entire region no longer existed, but then, it still wouldn't die because its history, and the souls of its people would keep it alive. Also it seems that in the west, nearly 90 percent of those who go to watch belly dancing performances are dancers. The rest is an audience made up mostly of Middle Easterners, as they're the most out of the general public to understand and appreciate this dance (even if they don't think the same about the dancer!). No art form could have possibly survived if it is completely rejected and if it were without an audience.

cathy

Kharmine & Adiemus,

Thanks for your comments. This is the kind of discussion I was trying to get at (whew! I had pretty much lost hope of clarifying my question there for awhile!) I was asking how we can know our exploration or borrowing is done without any bad faith or disrespect. What the boundaries are between assimilation, fusion, and dilution. How someone can be sure they are appreciating the form in and of itself, rather than a fantasy they are bringing to it.

Also Shanazel--about your comment "'Exotic' implies mystery and romance, among other things....Maybe what is exotic to us is our fantasy of what something is like? And that is a question, not a statement, by the way."

This also gets at what I was wondering and it is also strikingly reminded me of falling in love vs. long term or companionate love. You know how when you first fall in love, before you really know someone deeply or long, part of the love is your idea of that person and your being swept away in the passion itself, rather than relying on knowledge of what that person is really like. Not to say that there is no more mystery or romance once you have been married a long time. But there is usually less mystery and more room for honest assessment and knowledge after a decade or two passes.

Maybe it's the same process with dance.

Cathy