LunaXJJ

As you may have guessed from the title, I'm a proud Pagan. Drawn to both the Norse, and Greek deities, and interested in learning more of the Greek style of BD because of that connection. I've been wanted to use BD as ritual dance, it just seems to click for me.

So, if there are other Pagans here, please join me in discussing how your beliefs and your dance may, or may not, come together at times.

If you're not a Pagan, don't think you can't join the discussion. Feel free to discuss how your beliefs and dance intertwine as well. All input is greatly appreciated. =]

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"Rhythm is a dancer, it's a soul's companion, you can feel it everywhere."

lizaj

Link to an earlier thread you may enjoy reading:


Is there such a thing as greek bellydance?



From what I gather Greek Belly Dance has its' origins n the 20th century. maria Aya will fill in the details for you. It doesn't seem to have anything to do with the Ancients. There is some very interesting reserch on the Dancers of Arrica and other ancient dance forms which may have been similar and some might take them as precoursers of belly dance. But other will deny a link between anything in ancient ritual dance and modern belly dance from either Egypt or Greece.

Alessandra Belloni this is an interesting link to ancient dance of the tarantula

LunaXJJ

Thanks for that. I'm glad I learned that sooner rather than later. =]

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"Rhythm is a dancer, it's a soul's companion, you can feel it everywhere."

lizaj

Don't go just on what I believe. read around and form your own conclusions. there's a lot of discussion.
I am not one to holds to the idea of the notions of a continuum from ancient dances. A few years back I was asked to dance by a Pagan friend at Beltane festival. The group I belong to agreed and we had an enjoyable and interesting day but I am not sure how strong the Pagans there regarded the link with belly dance was any more than we did!

LunaXJJ

Don't worry, I'm sure more people will bring up the Greek BD comment, so I'm sure there will be plenty of information to absorb. =] I'm sure not all Pagans will have the same feelings for belly dance. I've just always viewed both my beliefs and BD with love and passion. When I belly dance, I can feel the energy move through me so fluidly, and it puts me in a trance like state. I feel like my energy, and the energy of the universe are one, like I'm dancing to a tune no one else can hear. Not so much when just randomly practicing, the atmosphere needs to be right for me too. One the mood is set, and the music is on, the world just disappears.

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"Rhythm is a dancer, it's a soul's companion, you can feel it everywhere."

Sita

Hiya,
Just to let you know Chryssanthi Sahar, a member and poster on that thread has her own site: Chryssanthi which includes more info on Greek Tsifteteli which you might find interesting.

My friend who is Wiccan is also drawn to the bellydance in the same way as you, so you're not alone.

Sita

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walladah

I am not a Pagan, but I am Greek, so, I would dare to make some points concerning your question and the other forum members' replies to that:

1) Study hard about Greek gods and goddesses and Greek myths in general. They are multilevel and complicated, as any myths anywhere in the world. Take care with the 12 gods and goddesses, because, guess what? it was a highly patriarch-based concept about divinity (example: gods had shared world and major activities, but they remained integral in character as men and personalities, goddesses had shared the several parts of women's nature, which means that each goddess was not an integral person-Athena seemed to acquire most of qualities, but she was single...). I do not know what paganism you are questing for, but, make your quest insightful and do not stay on famous gods or on one version of their myth only.

2) Using bellydance as a ritual dance is, to my opinion, normal for bellydance- remember that most cultures dancing has been one of the highest forms of prayer, before Christianism banned for its followers all moves but the cross sign of the right hand.

3) Searching for any ritual elements in the traditional oriental dance danced in the areas of Greece, or where Greeks lived for centuries is another thing.

a) First, because tsifteteli is considered to be of "lower status" as a traditional dance in the South of Balkans, so the tradition in most areas of Greece imposes that a "lady" does not dance tsifteteli. There are exceptions of course (and I have been lucky enough to grow up within a family and an environment who praised the tsifteteli dance and the dancer), but disdain has led most women in Greece to forget about the dance as it has been danced by our grandmothers or our grandmothers' grandmothers.

b) It might seem arrogant, but to my great disappointment, the discussions mentioned above about Greek bellydance style do not have any practical information about greek=traditional oriental dance that is actually danced in Greece today by real people. They do not even mention that there are several types of Greek tsifteteli, according to the area it is danced and according to the people or the influence each type is danced under.

c) The best video on youtube that is rather closest to one of those types is the following
YouTube - Karsilamas - tsifteteli

where old women and a man (because tsifteteli is danced by men as well, if the music and the style of the dance permit it) are dancing a quick tsifteteli. The people who uploaded the video call it tsifteteli-karsilama, at my home village they call it turkish tsifteteli - it is more or less danced like that in the video. It is not in the video, but there are also some other moves, like wrist rolls, and a shoulder shimmy. The backbend is rare in this type of tsifteteli. I do not know whether you consider it ritual, but the place of the hands always remind of little statues found all over the Mediterranean indicating "worshiping stance".

d) It has been impossible so far to find a video on youtube giving some idea about the tsifteteli of Smyrni (Izmir). I can tell that this is quieter than the previous one, but with separate moves of the hips (circles and a special type of drops), small "camel waves" starting from the centre of the chest, very graceful hands, isolations of the upper part of the body and backbends. The dancer uses the words of the song she dances to (the music has usually words) which means, that expression is indispensable in Smyrnean style.

e) There is also the Thracian type of tsifteteli (you might also learn it as the Istnabul type, or the Istanbul tsifteteli belongs to the THracian type), which is very slow, you can use more movements in the sense that you are closer to the snake figure, but you can also retain your posture, depending on the song or on what you want to express through the dance (the effect of slow moves+selected postures+cyclical movement while staying on the same point cannot be described in words). No video exists on youtube for this, either The special hip drop of Smyrni does not exist in this dance type (because it is too slow for that movement) but hip drops are of different, more muscular-movement type, and the hands and face are leading the dance. To my opinion, this dance is the most ritual of all danced in Greece today and in traditional bellydance in general.

f) There is the Peloponnesian (south of Greece) type of tsifteteli, with several Roma influences, like floorwork (it does not exist in the other three types) with backbends, quick chest shimmy (that does exist in the previous three) and intense hip drops.

g) The oriental dance of the Roma women living in Greece. I can assure you that each area of the country has its own type of Roma oriental dance, which means that the Roma women of Xanthi dance different from those of Komotini, and from those of THessaloniki and from those of Thessalia region, etc. You can see dance of Roma women of the Thessaloniki area at Óýëëïãïò Åëëçíßäùí Ãõíáéêþí Ñïì. I love very much the dance of Roma women of Rodopi (south-central Thrace).

h) There is also karsilama (antikrystos), which is a traditional dance in Greece, and also has many many types. If you are interested, I can give you more info about that, as well.

i) fortunately, great (and I would say with great metaphysical lyrics) tsifteteli songs exist both from the tradition and the modern composers who create new stuff (well fitting most of the dance types mentioned above), but "intellectual" attitude of modern Greece does not permit yet to use this cultural wealth. Of course, those songs are not yet presented on youtube as "danceable", although they could easily be (I do use them for my own dance, though).

I am not an expert in all types of traditional oriental dance in Greece because I can know better only about some of the types danced in real life and actually this is my approach instead of using youtube which obviously has not yet any useful information about that. As for formalities, I have also seen in some cases the tsifteteli of Smyrni to be danced on stage by folk dance groups, but this is not very common, because yes, there are people who consider tsifteteli as a foreign dance "that should be forgotten for ever". Old women are treasure keepers in that sense, but modern culture does not permit them to dance as they did some decades ago (if you find any old Greek women in your area, beg them on knees to dance for you). However, they still beat all the modern down in that unofficial video above, because they dance a real thing.

Best wishes for your quest. Even without videos: Follow the music, it tells everything.

Shanazel

Walladah, what a fountain of fascinating information you are! Thank you for taking the time to write all that- I am now fascinated by a subject to which I'd never given much thought.

Rep to you!

LunaXJJ

Wow, thanks for all of that lovely information. I assure you that when I feel drawn to something, I make sure to learn as much as I can. The first myths I read was a book in middle school that I must've read a billion times. It was nice because it included lesser known deities, and included the stry of Pandora, and some information on the muses, not just the major deities.

Again, thank you for the information, I haven't finished it all yet, but I assure you I'm working on it. =]

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"Rhythm is a dancer, it's a soul's companion, you can feel it everywhere."

shiradotnet

Hi Luna! Have you read Sacred Woman, Sacred Dance by Iris J. Stewart? It talks about using dance for sacred purposes regardless of your faith. Ie, it's Pagan-friendly, but equally friendly to Christian liturgical dance and other uses of dance in expression of spirit. Here's a link to a review I wrote of it: Book Review: Sacred Woman, Sacred Dance by Iris J. Stewart

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