Amulya

Well, this topic came up on the MED list, and I found it very interesting as I have been often thinking about this, but never saw any discussion about it:

It seems that westerners who borrow things from other cultures are committing "cultural imperialism" and thus must be meticulously respectful to the other culture, but if another culture borrows things from the west (or from each other) it can have all the freedom to express the material any way they want. Because 'the west doesn't need to be respected'.

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Blog: What Were They Thinking?

Aisha Azar

Dear Amulya,
I have a vague memory of that statement on the List... but I do not really remember the context.

I don't think I responded to the post, but I do recall thinking that it has a lot to do with the power structure between the Third World countries and the West, and that there is an old Greek philosophy that says in simplistic terms "Might makes Right". The West usually wins out in any confrontation between it and a Third World country and then abuses its power in most cases, taking all resources from the country and not really contributing anything of material value, leaving it poor and devastated, etc. In most cases, the West is in the position to weild and misuse power so this creates an imbalance socially, econmically, psychologically etc. Some countries are beginning to try to find new ways in which to deal with Third World Countreis in a more equitable manner, rather than from the old philosophy of Manifest Destiny.

This is one of the books that can explain it in depth if anyone is interested.
Development and Social Change: a Global Perspective, By Phillip McMichael - Pine Forge Press, Thousand Oaks California ISBN 0-8039-9066-9. This man writes with a lot of compassion and its why I like his particular book so much.
It is a sociology textbook.
Regards,
A'isha

Kiadorin

I will have to put more thought into this, but my initial impression is that perhaps other cultures are not borrowing from the West as much as the West is imposing its culture upon them. I speculate that through such imposition, they have (voluntarily or involuntarily) gained sufficient exposure to and knowledge of certain aspects of Western culture that, in some sense, those aspects of Western culture belong as much to them as to the West. As such, they have as much freedom to express the material as anyone else does. I think this what happens more often.

However, I guess this could go both ways. If it is borrowing more than imposition, then I think the same rules should apply to everyone; no one should be disrespected.

Aisha Azar

Dear Amulya and Kiadorin,
I think one big difference is that the West usually goes to the Third World and "borrows" stuff and adapts it to their needs and culture in a different location, where usually the Third World stays at home and adapts what is brought to it from the West, as Kiadorin says. I think on some levels it is a matter of invasion versus acquisiton through having been invaded...??? This seems to set up an entirely different dynamic in what a person migth view as "borrowing". I know in my case it certainly does!
Regards,
A'isha

Shanazel

Living cultures are dynamic, adding and subtracting elements as members of the culture move through life and interact with other societies, either willingly or not. "The West" is not a homogenous entity identifiable by race, culture, or place. It plays roles as both the invader and the invaded.

"Third World" isn't a firmly established place, either: at one time it included places like Ireland, which had its own invasion issues with the accompanying loss of tradition and culture. Irish fleeing oppression in their own land fled all over the world, spreading Irish culture as they went. Invasion or enrichment of cultural diversity? Is it different when the culture in question is not European? Interesting questions with about a hundred different answers.

Kiadorin is absolutely right when she says no one should be disrespected. In the modern world, the degrees of separation are likely to be far less than six in number.

Aisha Azar

Dear Shanazel,
It is true that the Third World and the West are rather hazy concepts, but they give us a general idea of political and social and cultural elements, I think.
Interesting that you bring up Ireland. I once did a paper comparing and contrasting the issues in Northern Ireland with Palestinian issues. I was amazed at the similarities as opposed to the differences!
RE respect: I do think that the U.S. and some European countries have rather a more public reputation as invaders, though it does happen between and among 3rd World countries as well. In Africa right now the borders seem to change every five minutes. It is all about respecting everyone, but I think that tends to be an ideal rather than a reality. To go to someone's own land and disrespect them seems to be more of a breach of manners to me somehow. The Iraqi situation seems to be a case in point. I have to admit that I am rather prejudiced in this area since a member of the FBI terrorist task force recently visited me to ask me about my activities in the Arab community. We invade a nation and then foist our lovely democracy on them when at home citizens are being treated like dirt under that democracy that we are spreading around. (Obviously the FBI has the same opinion of me that some of the people on the forum do!! LOL!!)
Meanwhile, I do hope that some day people can really resepct each other's cultures
Regards,
A'isha

Yasmine Bint Al Nubia

Hi Amulya and Group, this is indeed an interesting topic! Just what sort of "western" traditions that are borrowed by non-westerners that are not respected? Shanazel et al make very good points, so I would like to add a few more. We are in the generation that can look back into history and make commentary about why and how situations developed. We often don't understand the historical eents that lead to our modern day world. "Western Imperialism" and colonization of "Third World "countries are modern terms that refer to the period of Western European expansionism. No doubt these are vague descriptions but it speaks volumes about the mindset of the powerful leaders in Europe at the time.
It was this mindset that (Eurocentric), that borrowed/adapted/stole from the cultures from which they come in contact with. In fact much of Europe's scientific and cultural foundatons came from other non-Europeans i.e Arabic numeral system, spices, medicines, musical instruments etc.
Within human history it becomes necessary for conquerers to replace and eliminate the social and legal infrastructures of the conquered people. Western Europeans leaders were no different.
But now we look back and realize the loss of social traditions. For those of us in the belly dance community , we understand that there is very little historical info that is consistent and true. Why should we respect the cultural traditions of people in Arabic and North African countries? Because we should know better.
Yasmine

Yasmine Bint Al Nubia

Aisha you may be the first belly dancer on the FBI's Most Wanted List!!:p
Yasmine

Aisha Azar

Dear Yasmine,
I may be repeating myself here, but I think I love you!!! There is something so to the root of it all about the way you think!!
Regards,
A'isha

Gabi

ROTF - I'm sorry if you are sick of me

but ....... I TOLD you you could get in trouble (please take as intended, please please please)

As to the topic.

I see our planet as one World and don't really like the concept of cultures (except to be enjoyed and shared) or much less countries.

Like Picasso - I feel that we should all share and exchange freely and I love the resulting mishmash