Caroline_afifi

Can someone please help me post this youtube clip!!

it is a youtube clip called 'On Orientalism-Edward Said'

This thread is about discussing Orientalism and it's impact on Middle Eastern dance.

The clip (when it appears) is just a starting point for the discussion.

karena

Here you go m'dear. This is 1 of 4. Do you want 2, 3 and 4 too?

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kayshier

I think it would be helpful to post the other clips in order to see the entire interview.

I think we should start off by understanding what imperialism is.

Imperalism is really the spreading of authority and power of one soverignty, though the conquest of territory..so in other words, if someone invades a space, and the claim it as their own then it is a matter of also stamping their authority on this new space that they have conqured. It implies that the conqueror has a superiority over the conqured and as such would impose their cultural ideals/mores on the culture that they have now taken over. it also in my mind implies that the perception of the culture of the conqured would be definitely skewed in a way that may lead to particular generalizations or viewpoints that may not really paint a fair picture of the existing culture and people.

there are countless examples ...ad finitum.

Having viewed this clip, and looked at Mr. Said's definition of what Orientalism is, it is clear that these images have not really changed that much, with the execption that now the ME is equated with crazy islamic fundamentalists who wish to kill all western infidels.

How has this Orientalism impacted on oriental dance? well i think it begins with the misnomer 'belly dance'. but it has become such a part of the vocabulary now that i don't think we even think it offensive really.

maybe orientalism has impacted on the development of AmCab and Tribal as artforms that are interpretations of what westerners think ME dance is.

just my first 2 cents.

kayshier

incidentally here are the other 3

part 2
YouTube - On Orientalism-Edward Said (2/4)

part 3
YouTube - On Orientalism-Edward Said (3/4)

part 4
YouTube - On Orientalism-Edward Said (4/4)


i also think that one issue that is worth exploring is how do we change (if we can at all) the "orientalist" image of ME dance, or is it that it would lose something if we do make an effort to change it?

Aisha Azar

Dear Gang,
Edward Said was one of the most brilliant thinkers of our time and he is sorely missed. I have argued in has favor and against it, depending on what the situation was. In this instance, we must keep in mind that he discusses ONLY Orientalism, and not the ethnocentricism that one encounters the other way around. For example, my friend who's parents made sure she was carted back to Jordan to get married before she could be influenced by the evil American culture in which they found themselves, and end up losing her virginity to some terrible American guy.
He has a very distinct definition for Orientalism and it is always negative. He denies any truth in what was recorded there, but much was true. (Some of those paintings were very accurate!! And Flaubert was a jerk but Lane actually LIKED the Egyptians very much and recorded what he saw without much in the way of overly judgmental prose. Said denies that Arabs have general characteristics, but does not mind thinking that the Orientalists do....
I agree with him completely that Imperialism put Orientalism to use as a tool in which to shape what westerners think of the Middle East, in order to strip them of their natural resources and other things of value. ( Even the Crusaders and yes, even Napolean had this in mind to some degree, but the objects of value were not oil or gold at the time, but instead the spreading of one's own ideals and ideas, as well as getting what was of more concrete value from the natives. You can not do that to people you consider your equals. I am the first to defend against Imperialist attitudes, but do not think that Orientalism is necessarily a totally bad thing.
Let's look at one example here. There was a flash of Gerome's work, "Arabs Crossing the Desert" in the first You Tube clip. ( The three men with one in a red cape with face hidden.) Why Said would choose that as an example of negative Orientalism, I am not sure. This artist happened to be in love with North Africa and the Middle East and his paintings were accurate and not fantasy. His paintings were not made for he purpose of denigrating or creating a sense of Self and Other, but because he was well and truly enamored.
AAAnyway... I think Said was brilliant, but I do not agree with every word from his mouth, either.
Regards,
A'isha

khanjar

Yes, Gerome's artistry does give off an air of affection for his subject matter, in the detail he painted. His work is more akin to a colourful window on the past and a ME past of fact not fiction.

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Caroline_afifi

Again I agree with you A'isha about this.
I know many who back him but only to this point and many are Arab.

I think going back to Imperialism and the definition,
at what point (or how long) does a country have to be occupied before it becomes theirs?

Given that the whole of North Africa was invaded and occupied by the Arabs. I heard my daughter and husband were discussing this last night.

I have got bogged down in this discussion on a few occasions. Geography and borders has changed so much with invasions and coups etc. it seems to be about who gets to 'keep it'.

Caroline_afifi

I think the issue with Orientalist art is that many (or infact most) have been proved to contain inacuracies which leads scholars to believe they are a product of fantasy. I think Dinet was the most respected as he lived in Algeria and Tunisia and died there (I think).

I am not an expert on this subject but have attended numerous seminars on the subject purely out of interest. I think the issue around nudity was the biggest issue and the 'exoticism' of the women.
This is where I believe we start our discussion.
It is the exoticism and fantasy which seems to spark the biggest debates in relation to this dance.

This is also where some of us get labelled 'purists' and 'traditionalists'.
I have worn these labels most of my dancing life because I draw a line in participating in overt fantasy and have political and cultural awareness.

It makes people very uncomfortable but they prefer to point the finger rather than deal with their own insecurities.

It is not about taking away freedom of expression, it is about not perpetuating more negative stereotypes and imperialist b**sh**.

I hope this thread will lead to a clearer understanding of these objectives.

Tarik Sultan

I agree that not all paintings are necessarily stereotypical, but I can understand why Said chose to show certain paintings which on the surface seem benign. I think it should have been explained though rather than being assumed the general public would get it.

For example, Arabs crossing the dessert. In and of itself there is nothing offensive or stereotypical that I can see, but the idea behind it is problematic. Its the idea that the East is this one big homogenous mass. Its all the same, all the people are the same. So there is this name ARAB and this place DESERT. And that's it. So we have an image with a name that represents an entire region and people.

My question? How do we define ARAB? Who came up with this description and why? Arab is too vague a term to accurately describe a person. The fact is there really is no such thing as ARAB. A Moroccan is not an Egyptian, is not a Syrian, is not a Saudi. So with these names, (Arab+desert) and the picture, we are not told anything as to where this is or what ethnicity these people actually are. Therefore when taken as a whole, it reenforces the misperception that there is one culture, one identity and that they are interchangeable. What gets lost is the individuality of the subject. The observer then is not given an accurate knowledge of the region and its peoples and that for him is one of the problems with Orientalist paintings.

Tarik Sultan

The Arabs came but they did not replace the population. They brought with them a religion that was adopted and a language that was integrated, but the overwhelming majority of the population are not the descendants of invaders, but the natives of the region who adopted the language and religion of the conquerors. Therefore, what we call an Arab North african, is really a person who is a berber, but one who now speaks the North african dialect of arabic, where as the "Berber", are people who accepted the religion, but have retained their original languages and customs. Therefore, its not a situation like the USA where one population comes in and replaces the other.