Orientalism - Page 3

Caroline_afifi · 08-09-2008, 06:25 PM

[quote=Aisha Azar;82224]Dear Caroline,

Quote:

There are plenty of people who consider me to be an arrogant bitch for even thinking I have the right to be so narrow in my definitions. In fact, my objective is and always has been to give cultures of origin their due.... nothing more or less than that.

Regards,
A'isha

I cant seem to get the rest of your quote!

Yes and what you say is all I really care about too and I enjoy a good fusion like the rest.

Orientalist have been heavily accused of the exoticism of Arab women.
Whilst some paintings and descriptions were true, the portrayal of this un-corseted abandoned wild female was the subject of many.
The picture postcards of topless women is an example along with the dessert images of women is sheer gauze blouses performing for men. Much of this is something born of the Western imagination.

The 'bull' for me is the fantasy around orientalism which still exsists.
There are many examples which make me uncomfortable but I would be in danger of potentially offending too many to name them all.

I am not comfortable with the whole fantasy style pantomime thing.
I once saw a friend innocently dress poeple up as Arabs as part of her dance set (it was purely for fun) but it really upset a few people.

I dont like to see people wafting about with veils drawn across their faces like 'extras' from the film set Aladin, and this sort of thing.

I dont like people using this dance as an exuse to be sexy, sultry and erotic.
This all relates to the exoticism of this dance for me and ultimately slaps of Orientalism in a modern day context.

Caroline_afifi · 08-09-2008, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sita

Thank you v. much for posting this. I am a BA English and History student and I am planning on doing my disertation on Orientalism (focused more on literature although some art) particularly it's perceptions of eastern women.
Said's work is amazing within literary terms he revolutionised Literature studies and set the framework of post-colonial studies with the concept of the 'other' being particularly powerful; the Orient the other to Occident. But the relationship is deeper in that he proposes that our sense of idenity in the Occident is based on our relationship to the Orient. Orientalism also makes the point that our culture the 'western christian culture' is dervived from the Orient/ MED - Jesus, Judaism.
His work, although as has been mentioned is debateable and has been challenged, is particularly interesting when applied to Romantic Orientalism and the work of Colridge, Shelly and Byron (particularly as Byron lived in the Orient).
Shelly's poem Alastor is particularly shocking when relating to exoticism and sexuality particularly in relation to women - more so than the paintings, not only do you see eastern clothes fetishised but the poem is quite shocking for its time in openly and graphically describing intercourse (although by todays standards its quite tame).

Also Romantic Orientalism is not entirely negative as the Orient also was seen as a place of creative freedom (see Coleridge's and Byron's work) free of the rapid industrialisation of the west, nature and sensual freedom, an escape, but also a place where one could 'find' themself - history and cultural beginnings or the 'mysterious ancient truth of the East'- which could become bewitching thus dangerous. The main issue in this is that the Orient is only percieved and defined in the ways it is of use or concerns the 'dominant' Occident; it is never allowed to be what it is in its own time e.g. a place to discover great former civilsations - but ones now in ruins so the 'real' present orient and its people are ignored. It is quite ironic that sexuality and sensuality were deemed as being acceptable in the works of Orientalism because they were seen as being charaterisations of the Orient even though the real Orient was strictly Islamic.

but then the Orient is of course not real but a construct.

It does however help explain why bellydancing is surroneded by this harem fantasy and strongly sexualised in the West thus making it appear wrongly to many people as close to stripping. And shows us where a lot of eastern sterotypes derive from - and remain.
Other good writers of Orientalism is Bryan Turner, S. Makdisi
Sita

P.S Apolagies on the bad grammar and spelling but I'm multi-tasking e.g. e-mail, research, planning b-days, Olympics as usual besides even English students get their times off mine is on the internet where I can ramble without correcting and proof-reading everything

Thank you Sita for this!

I have a report called the 'Arab Image In the West' which was published as a paper from the a 10098 coversazione held at Oxford University in 1998.

one passage says''
'In the view of some Western academics, sexual attitudes are central to the Arab image in the West'
It goes on to discuss how the women are stereotyped..
'Related to this is the image whioch has developed of the harem,the veiland the hammam. and the mystery of the Arab woman. who is never visible to the Western man.
The booklet also looks at 'The Bedouin romance' this is the desert issue we have mentioned. Men are either like Omar Sharif and tame wild Arab stallions or are villans and thieves. (the book report is 10 years old).

Another interesting passage,
'Just as defining the Arab image is complicated by the various levels of analysis within the term 'Arab', so the Arab image overlaps with the image of Muslims, and it is probably impossible to disentangle the two. In the minds of many Westerners they have become interchangeable terms. despite the fact that the majority of Muslims live outside the Arab world'.

I think what is also interesting is the way in which this report talks about how the West see's itself as 'masculine and strong' and the 'East as feminine and weak'.

Aisha Azar · 08-09-2008, 07:24 PM

Dear Sita,

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sita

Dear A'isha
I do not disagree with most of what you have said and how BD is seen in the MED.

Quote:

However one aspect of Orientalism is the sexualisation of the East and Eastern women and this concept is particularly associated with the Harem, with the imagined idea of BD being used to attract the Sultans attention and favour, and most people in the Uk when presented with the idea of Bellydancing, they refer to this Harem fantasy not to the ghawazee or prostitution stereotypes.

That is very true, and it is totally a fantasy, but my point was that this sexualization of public entertainers happened long before the Western variations on sexualization materialized. This is just one more variation on what has happened forever. I am not sure why it is worse when it is a westernized version.... the Harem fantasy did have some roots in reality as sultans and other types of rulers did have their choice of many women, including and perhaps especially Circassian slaves. The fantasy would have come in when westerners began to paint pictures in either words or with paint or pencil, of what they had never seen and never would see!! The fantasy was not entirely fantasy, but it being tied up with the dancing girl might be. Even that is not entirely fantasy though as many women in both Turkey and in Arab countries were trained rather in a way similar to Geishas, and knew how to read, write, do math, recite poetry, and a ton of sexual tricks as well as dance, sing, play musical instruments.

Quote:

Therefore I believe this concept to be a product of the influence of Western Orientalism and not the preception of the dance in the MED. I am not talking about how the MED sees BD but the West; as I believe these two oppinions derive from different sources. For example Salome's dance of the Seven Veils; it is a Western concept eroticising the Eastern women but does not derive from the East itself. There was no Dance of the 7 veils there and the Bible itself does not mention any such dance. Some have loosely drawn ideas that it comes from the myth of Ishtar's descent into the underworld but have yet to show a link from the existence of this myth to the pen of Wilde or any of his sources. Nor does that change the fact that there was no such dance in the MED; it is purely a fantasy a product of Orientalism as is this sexualised harem image of BD in the UK.

I do agree that western people eroticized women differently than Eastern people probably did, but the end result is the same. Sexualization. I see the problem as the same for women, meaning that regardless of whether sexualization originates in the East or the West, each leads to a sort of repression of the Other. Read the story of Hoda Sharawi's life to see what I mean. She was married against her will when she was 13 because of the sexualization inherent in the Eastern system. She had to fight against repression of females by both Europeans and by Egyptians. I am not sure that she, as an Egyptian woman, would see much difference. I know that Nawal Al Saadawi does not. She is willing to see the bad and good equally in both systems. Of all writers I have read as far as problems between East and West, she is the most fair. She looks first to her own system to see what might be taking place there, and then outward. Ms. Al Saadawi is a brilliant writer, a doctor, and has even spent time in jail for her "radical" views.
Regards,
A'isha

yours respectfully,
Sita

Sita · 08-09-2008, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

I have a report called the 'Arab Image In the West' which was published as a paper from the a 10098 coversazione held at Oxford University in 1998.

one passage says''
'In the view of some Western academics, sexual attitudes are central to the Arab image in the West'
It goes on to discuss how the women are stereotyped..
'Related to this is the image whioch has developed of the harem,the veiland the hammam. and the mystery of the Arab woman. who is never visible to the Western man.

That sounds like a fascinating paper and I will be trying to get hold of it for my research -thank you for mentioning it.

The booklet also looks at 'The Bedouin romance' this is the desert issue we have mentioned. Men are either like Omar Sharif and tame wild Arab stallions or are villans and thieves. (the book report is 10 years old).

The aspect of the 'bedouin romance' is still alive and well; check out Mills & Boone quite a few follow the format and Arab men are hardly ever put in a good light - hard, domineering, chauvinistic, underlining aspect of the possiblity of marital rape as in the original story of The Sheik. Some even correspond to the idea of the Sheik hero being ethnically European but raised by the Bedouin or adopted to make him more acceptable as a romance hero.
Another interesting passage,
'Just as defining the Arab image is complicated by the various levels of analysis within the term 'Arab', so the Arab image overlaps with the image of Muslims, and it is probably impossible to disentangle the two. In the minds of many Westerners they have become interchangeable terms. despite the fact that the majority of Muslims live outside the Arab world'.

So true, for many Arabs can only be Muslim. Arab Christians and the Eastern Church such as the Maronites or Copts are completly unknown to many. There are even Jewish minorities in Iran not to mention the Yemenite Jews who have a distinct culture and tradition of their own.

I think what is also interesting is the way in which this report talks about how the West see's itself as 'masculine and strong' and the 'East as feminine and weak'
It's fascinating Coleridge's poem Kubla Khan even feminises the landscape and earth of the Orient as Feminine. One author who tackles images of Oriental Women and compares Western with Eastern images is Fatema Mernissi in her book Scheherazade Goes West: Different Cultures, Different Harems -V. good. There are loads of great books on the subject we must compare lists sometime .

On the subject of Orientalism have you been to the Orientalism exhibition in the Tate Britain? - I'm going on Monday

Sita

Aisha Azar · 08-09-2008, 07:47 PM

Dear Gang,
Regarding dance, in the end it is like this. We can buy into the guilt by association of being western and begin to believe that we as dancers are somehow oppressors. We also have the option to do everything we can not to fall into Imperialist traps by respecting totally what belongs to someone else. This means that we do not do with it whatever we want, but try our best to understand what it is and preserve it in its condition in which it was loaned to us. We do not just arbitrarily change something to suit our needs, or I would at least hope that we do not, but this, I think is the true issue and root of negative Orientalism in all cases..... and I see it as continuing in the dance in many cases. Some dancers apparently believe they can improve on the original. I have heard people say that so and so western dancer is "better" than Fifi or Sema or Randa or whoever. This is not possible. It is not possible to be better at the dance than the cream of the crop from the countries of origin. It is THEIR dance and with very few exceptions, they understand it in ways that it takes us literally years to even begin to tap into.
Manifest Destiny, Devine Right, Imperialism and negative Orientalism all boil down to the basic idea that someone can take someone else's stuff and do whatever they want with it, be it material goods, ideas, dances, natural resources or human beings. It is all the same phiilosophy in the end.
Regards,
A'isha

Sita · 08-09-2008, 09:26 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sita
Dear A'isha
Thank you for your fascinating responce. I hope mine will be as of much interest to you;

Quote:

However one aspect of Orientalism is the sexualisation of the East and Eastern women and this concept is particularly associated with the Harem, with the imagined idea of BD being used to attract the Sultans attention and favour, and most people in the Uk when presented with the idea of Bellydancing, they refer to this Harem fantasy not to the ghawazee or prostitution stereotypes.

Aisha Azar:That is very true, and it is totally a fantasy, but my point was that this sexualization of public entertainers happened long before the Western variations on sexualization materialized. This is just one more variation on what has happened forever. I am not sure why it is worse when it is a westernized version.... the Harem fantasy did have some roots in reality as sultans and other types of rulers did have their choice of many women, including and perhaps especially Circassian slaves. The fantasy would have come in when westerners began to paint pictures in either words or with paint or pencil, of what they had never seen and never would see!! The fantasy was not entirely fantasy, but it being tied up with the dancing girl might be. Even that is not entirely fantasy though as many women in both Turkey and in Arab countries were trained rather in a way similar to Geishas, and knew how to read, write, do math, recite poetry, and a ton of sexual tricks as well as dance, sing, play musical instruments.

I completly agree that the sexualisation of female entertainers came way before Orientalism; in England our first actresses after the Restoration such as Nell Gwyn were prostitutes. However in reference to Orientalism all Eastern women were eroticised performers or not a fantasy was created. I never said however that the Western sexualisation was worse. The reason why Romantic Orientalisms sexualisation of eastern women is of interest to me is a) it is in complete contrast to the western women and how they were protrayed and allowed to behave b) it has multiple contradictions within it c) the literature of Romantic Orientalism is far more sexualised and eroticised than what was deemed acceptable at the time and it was only allowed because erotic and sexual behaviour was seen as being a part of the Orient d) it is still v. much alive today in peoples minds. e) it teaches us more about the Occident and western concepts of women.

As for belly dance my issue and point was that this Harem fantasy that BD comes from the dances women did to seek the attention of the Sultan is still alive today in peoples minds and has lead many to view the dance as highly sexualised and akin to striptease. Whereas female actress's, dancers, entertainers etc are now in the West seen as artists and not sexualised as they had been. Belly dancer's still are because of this Harem fantasy given to them via Orientalist painting, literature and even hollywood.

Fatema Mernissi in her book Scheherazade Goes West addresses the Harem fantasy of Western Orientalism of which art is at the centre of. Whereas you point out the women of harems were trained in art, mathematics, recite poetry etc and to be Almeh's, women of the Western Harem's are passive, beautiful sexual objects lying there nude only there to sexually please their Sultan nothing more. As she states in the MED 'both minatures and literature, men represent women as active participants, while Westerners... show them nude and passive. Muslim painters imagine harem women as riding fast horse, armed with bows and arrows, and dressed in heavy coats'. Thus while in 'Muslim harems, celebral confrontation with women is necessary to achieve orgasm' in these Western harems 'intellectual exchange with women is an obstacle to erotic pleasure'. Foremost this western harem is false, it does not exist and never did it is pure fantasy and I object to that.
I object to the fact that my dancing is not viewed by most as an art form in the West like flamenco or even Kathak and the reason for this is Oriental steroetypes that still exist today.

I do agree that western people eroticized women differently than Eastern people probably did, but the end result is the same. Sexualization. I see the problem as the same for women, meaning that regardless of whether sexualization originates in the East or the West, each leads to a sort of repression of the Other. Read the story of Hoda Sharawi's life to see what I mean. She was married against her will when she was 13 because of the sexualization inherent in the Eastern system. She had to fight against repression of females by both Europeans and by Egyptians. I am not sure that she, as an Egyptian woman, would see much difference. I know that Nawal Al Saadawi does not. She is willing to see the bad and good equally in both systems. Of all writers I have read as far as problems between East and West, she is the most fair. She looks first to her own system to see what might be taking place there, and then outward. Ms. Al Saadawi is a brilliant writer, a doctor, and has even spent time in jail for her "radical" views.
Regards,
A'isha

I shall check out both Hoda Sharawi, and Nawal Al Saadawi; thank you for suggesting them Al Saadawi sounds particulalry good. I have to say this difference in the origin of sexualisation is important because it results in different forms of repression and therefore it requires different actions and approachs too challenge it. Also whereas Nawal Al Saadawi may not see the difference others particularly those who study post-colonial studies and feminisim or what is also known as 'double colonialisation' like Chandra Talpade Mohanty, Kirsten Holst Petersen, Fatema Mernissi, Ketu Katrak, etc do. However I accept this is simply my oppinion and one we obviously disagree on.

yours respectfully
Sita

cathy · 08-09-2008, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sita

I object to the fact that my dancing is not viewed by most as an art form in the West like flamenco or even Kathak and the reason for this is Oriental steroetypes that still exist today.

I agree totally. I also agree with you (or whoever it was) who said that the sexualization and denigration that existed in culture of origin is differently motivated that that in our culture.

I did a thread awhile back about the Fatima Mernissi Scheherazade Goes West book.

Good luck with your thesis.

Cathy

Aisha Azar · 08-09-2008, 11:15 PM

Dear Sita,
I could not use the quote thingy on your response, so I will be doing a bit of running back and forth here. If I miss something important, please let me know.

I would say that while not all women portrayed in Orientalist art or writing became eroticized performers, many certainly did, you are correct for sure! But, in regard to your point A, I would not say that western women were relly treated that much differently during the era when Orientalism was said to have come into being. Victorian women were still eroticized by western men. Some people have the postcards to prove it!! We just never allow that this kind of thing would be happening in our own back yards. And we still today are playing very seuxal roles in movies, etc, and there is more sexualization of western women today than ever before.... by the western entertainment industry. Furthermore we are portray quite often in correlation with violence in ways that did not happen while eastern women were being sexualized. In effect, it has not happened that differently in the West.
In regard to point B, what , if situation involving human beings does not have multiple contradictions in it???? It might even be called the human condition on some levels.
Regarding point C- The Europeans were also writing things like "Madame Bovary", if I am recalling the right time period. Did Flaubert not write that or am I confused? If I remember correctly, I think he was taken to court for indecent literature or something similar. There we have the sexualization of the European Victorian woman.
Regarding point D- Please see point A and the sexualization of women in the west. This by the way extends to the Middle Eastern men who come here thinking some slut will pick them up them at the airport.... and that is exactly what one guy told me he expected to have happen because of the exaggerated stories he heard about how western women behave. I have had more than one guy from the Middle East tell me similar things. Yet, Edward Said did not look too closely at that! And E- Itg is giving us only one side of a very complicated story of ethnicentricity that is a world wide problem, not just an occidental issue. Do not forget that Arab slavers went into Africa dn took even Muslims and sold them into slavery. they ended up here due to a long process of cooperation wherein each group though the other was beneath them.
Re belly dancing and sexualization, yes the harem fantasy is definitely part of the uneducated western imagery of the dance, along with the slave market fantasy. I spoke last week-end at a Sci-Fi convention where I discussed the slave and dancing girl imagery in the Gor series and in the Star Trek TV series. The image is very ingrained in western thinking.
I am probably going to make a lot of people throw up their hands at how ridiculous I am, but there is much in Mernissi's book that I take with a grain of salt. She looks at a Persian miniature and sees one example of one woman of high social standing who goes hunting and decides women are allowed to use weapons and go to war. This is not good research on her part. She got some other things very wrong in my personal experience as well, though it has been several years since I read the book and would have to dig it out and hope I took notes to tell you exactly what. Often women are not active participants in Oriental life any more than Victorian women were allowed to be in Occidental life. She is reading a lot into miniature, and also not looking at how men of both sides of the world treated women in their respective areas. In
fact, in some cases the similarities were sort of amazing.
I do have to beg to differ about your reference to female actresses in the West not being sexualized while belly dancers still are. in fact if anything, i think they are more sexualized than ever!! And as I stated, often in the most ugly and violent contexts.

I know I am playing Devil's Advocate here, but I think we need to see this more in context of the whole picture and not just half of it.
Regards,
A'isha

Shanazel · 08-09-2008, 11:50 PM

In a long ago thread, there was an often heated discussion on belly dance being sensual vs. sexual. If belly dance is inherently sexual as some people believed, how is the sexualization of dancers contrary to essence of the dance?

Shoot, I know what I want to ask, but it is not coming out right. How about: where is the line drawn between acceptably sexy and exploitively sexy?

Aisha Azar · 08-10-2008, 12:13 AM

[quote=Caroline_afifi;82256]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aisha Azar

Dear Caroline,

Dear Caroline,

Quote:

I cant seem to get the rest of your quote!

Same thing just happened to me!

Quote:

Yes and what you say is all I really care about too and I enjoy a good fusion like the rest.

Yes.

Quote:

Orientalist have been heavily accused of the exoticism of Arab women.
Whilst some paintings and descriptions were true, the portrayal of this un-corseted abandoned wild female was the subject of many.
The picture postcards of topless women is an example along with the dessert images of women is sheer gauze blouses performing for men. Much of this is something born of the Western imagination.

There is no denying that there is fantasy in waht many of the Orinetalists pprtrayed. Worse is that the fantasy was used as a way to portray the peoples of everywhere that was not Europe or North America as something less than equal. This is perhaps not what many Orientalists had in mind, but it is what happened. At the same time we must look at how women were treated during this same period in Europe and in America, where I am more familiar with the laws of the land.... they were pretty much not looking at women here as equals either. I think where it gets sticky is more in their treatment of Occidental, south American African, and all other men as unequal. This is where we find the attitudes of Imperialism and negative Orientalsim as more concrete, I think.

Quote:

The 'bull' for me is the fantasy around orientalism which still exsists.
There are many examples which make me uncomfortable but I would be in danger of potentially offending too many to name them all.

I understand completely.

Quote:

I am not comfortable with the whole fantasy style pantomime thing.
I once saw a friend innocently dress poeple up as Arabs as part of her dance set (it was purely for fun) but it really upset a few people.

I regularly dress women and men on my stages in appropriate clothing to what we are portraying. I occasionally do Reda style skits, etc. What I detest is the phony Arab" or "Turkish" look, with the big bright blue satin funny shalwar a mile wide, the big vest, the turban with a big jewel and feather, etc, etc, etc, It makes me sick and if anyone here is offended by my comments here, you are not nearly as offended as I am by that hideous and comical portrayal ofArabs and Turks.

Quote:

I dont like to see people wafting about with veils drawn across their faces like 'extras' from the film set Aladin, and this sort of thing.

I have a video with dance with about 10 dancers and Farida Famhmi that makes me just gag, very similar to this!

Quote:

I dont like people using this dance as an exuse to be sexy, sultry and erotic.
This all relates to the exoticism of this dance for me and ultimately slaps of Orientalism in a modern day context.

I don't like that either, but it is not far off the mark when we put it in context to what many of the dancers over there are really doing, I have seen video of Fifi pushing her boobs into the camera, on private video. I have German video of Nagwqa Fouad rolling her pelvis around with her legs spread VERY wide and bent at the knees.... VERY sleazy and suggestive. I have seen phtoos and video of many dancers over there who are not so famous acting out in ways that I would consider pretty sexual, even beyond what I have seen western girls do. The do not get that from us, either. I am not in favor of dancing with so little class, but I do believe the dance is sexy in its native context and I differentiate between sexy and sleazy.
Regards,
A'isha

08-09-2008, 07:47 PM	#25 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,463	The East and West of dance Dear Gang, Regarding dance, in the end it is like this. We can buy into the guilt by association of being western and begin to believe that we as dancers are somehow oppressors. We also have the option to do everything we can not to fall into Imperialist traps by respecting totally what belongs to someone else. This means that we do not do with it whatever we want, but try our best to understand what it is and preserve it in its condition in which it was loaned to us. We do not just arbitrarily change something to suit our needs, or I would at least hope that we do not, but this, I think is the true issue and root of negative Orientalism in all cases..... and I see it as continuing in the dance in many cases. Some dancers apparently believe they can improve on the original. I have heard people say that so and so western dancer is "better" than Fifi or Sema or Randa or whoever. This is not possible. It is not possible to be better at the dance than the cream of the crop from the countries of origin. It is THEIR dance and with very few exceptions, they understand it in ways that it takes us literally years to even begin to tap into. Manifest Destiny, Devine Right, Imperialism and negative Orientalism all boil down to the basic idea that someone can take someone else's stuff and do whatever they want with it, be it material goods, ideas, dances, natural resources or human beings. It is all the same phiilosophy in the end. Regards, A'isha

08-09-2008, 11:15 PM	#28 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,463	Orientalism, etc. Dear Sita, I could not use the quote thingy on your response, so I will be doing a bit of running back and forth here. If I miss something important, please let me know. I would say that while not all women portrayed in Orientalist art or writing became eroticized performers, many certainly did, you are correct for sure! But, in regard to your point A, I would not say that western women were relly treated that much differently during the era when Orientalism was said to have come into being. Victorian women were still eroticized by western men. Some people have the postcards to prove it!! We just never allow that this kind of thing would be happening in our own back yards. And we still today are playing very seuxal roles in movies, etc, and there is more sexualization of western women today than ever before.... by the western entertainment industry. Furthermore we are portray quite often in correlation with violence in ways that did not happen while eastern women were being sexualized. In effect, it has not happened that differently in the West. In regard to point B, what , if situation involving human beings does not have multiple contradictions in it???? It might even be called the human condition on some levels. Regarding point C- The Europeans were also writing things like "Madame Bovary", if I am recalling the right time period. Did Flaubert not write that or am I confused? If I remember correctly, I think he was taken to court for indecent literature or something similar. There we have the sexualization of the European Victorian woman. Regarding point D- Please see point A and the sexualization of women in the west. This by the way extends to the Middle Eastern men who come here thinking some slut will pick them up them at the airport.... and that is exactly what one guy told me he expected to have happen because of the exaggerated stories he heard about how western women behave. I have had more than one guy from the Middle East tell me similar things. Yet, Edward Said did not look too closely at that! And E- Itg is giving us only one side of a very complicated story of ethnicentricity that is a world wide problem, not just an occidental issue. Do not forget that Arab slavers went into Africa dn took even Muslims and sold them into slavery. they ended up here due to a long process of cooperation wherein each group though the other was beneath them. Re belly dancing and sexualization, yes the harem fantasy is definitely part of the uneducated western imagery of the dance, along with the slave market fantasy. I spoke last week-end at a Sci-Fi convention where I discussed the slave and dancing girl imagery in the Gor series and in the Star Trek TV series. The image is very ingrained in western thinking. I am probably going to make a lot of people throw up their hands at how ridiculous I am, but there is much in Mernissi's book that I take with a grain of salt. She looks at a Persian miniature and sees one example of one woman of high social standing who goes hunting and decides women are allowed to use weapons and go to war. This is not good research on her part. She got some other things very wrong in my personal experience as well, though it has been several years since I read the book and would have to dig it out and hope I took notes to tell you exactly what. Often women are not active participants in Oriental life any more than Victorian women were allowed to be in Occidental life. She is reading a lot into miniature, and also not looking at how men of both sides of the world treated women in their respective areas. In fact, in some cases the similarities were sort of amazing. I do have to beg to differ about your reference to female actresses in the West not being sexualized while belly dancers still are. in fact if anything, i think they are more sexualized than ever!! And as I stated, often in the most ugly and violent contexts. I know I am playing Devil's Advocate here, but I think we need to see this more in context of the whole picture and not just half of it. Regards, A'isha

08-09-2008, 11:50 PM	#29 (permalink)
Shanazel Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Rocky Mountains USA Posts: 4,573	In a long ago thread, there was an often heated discussion on belly dance being sensual vs. sexual. If belly dance is inherently sexual as some people believed, how is the sexualization of dancers contrary to essence of the dance? Shoot, I know what I want to ask, but it is not coming out right. How about: where is the line drawn between acceptably sexy and exploitively sexy?