cathy

Good thread idea, and thanks for posting the Said interview clips, which are a lot easier to follow than his book Orientalism! Just in case anyone was unaware, these interviews took place in 1997. Edward Said died in 2003.

It is certainly possible to quibble about what is meant by "Arabs" or "the Arab world," because opinions vary on whether this refers to:
Geneological--descended from peoples of the Arabian pennisula or the Gulf;
Linguistic--people whose native language is, or who live in a country whose official language is, some version of Arabic
Geographical--people living in one of the (20, 22, or 24 depending on whose definition is being used!) nations of what we call the Middle East or Near East, or North Africa

Not all Egyptians, for example, identify as Arabic. Certainly, not all Arabs are Muslim nor are all Muslims Arabs by any means!

But once we clarify which definition we are using the group of people is fairly easy to define.

On the other hand it is not so easy to define a group of people as "Orientalists" unless we are discussing a group of painters or other artists who either identified themselves that way, or were identified and can be recognized as a group through their art, writings, architecture, etc. Orientalism as Said defines it, is a worldview or method of discourse. He defines different strains of Orientalism--British and French, as opposed to American for instance. But I don't think you can say "all British, French, and Americans are Orientalists." Just like we can't really identify a specific geneological, linguistic, or geographical group of people as "sexists" or "racists." I think he might say something like "in the West it is almost impossible to escape the effects of Orientalism over thought and discourse."

So while Said says Arabs cannot be described as having a common worldview, I agree.

As he defines Orientalism AS a (perhaps largely unconscious) worldview, it IS possible to discuss the POV of this method of discourse--or group of people who actually engage in this discourse--as having common ground. That is in fact how he defines the term.

Now there are undoubtedly people on this forum who think of this term differently and think of themselves as "friendly Orientalists" so to speak, that is, people with a deep affinity for, and commitment to understanding, the Arab world and its cultures. I don't think that is how Said uses the term at all.

Cathy

Aisha Azar

Dear Caroline,

There are plenty of people who consider me to be an arrogant bitch for even thinking I have the right to be so narrow in my definitions. In fact, my objective is and always has been to give cultures of origin their due.... nothing more or less than that.

Regards,
A'isha


Dear Cathy,
From an anthropological point of view, "Worldview" is a legitimate term meaning that most people in such and such group believe such and such thing. This is a legitimate term. I can even tell you that the worldview here in Spokane, Washington is quite different from the general worldview in Boston, Massachusetts, which is different from San Francisco, which is different again from Los Angeles. Yet most people within these places do have an individualst worldview as opposed to a universal or communal one. I have lived in those places and know it for a fact. There is indeed such a thing as a cultural belief system and that is what worldview means. No, not all Arabs think alike any more than all Americans do, but there is still much that they have in common. For example, most Arabs DO happen to believe that nice girls are not professional belly dancers. This is an Arab worldview. There are very few that I have met who want their daughters to be belly dancers. I have met none. If they exist, they are rare enough so that they fit outside the stereotype of Arabs not wanting their daughters to be belly dancers. This is not a statement of judgment or in any way a put down. It is a truth, pure and complicated.

Aniseteph

The ad I'm getting at the bottom of this page says: Meet Single Arabs HERE

Maybe we could ask them?

Aisha Azar

Dear Gang,
Just a quick note here. Cristian Davies has a book, "The Orientalists:Western Artists in Arabia, The Sahara, Persia and India". It covers North Africa as well, and has some incredible art in it. He has an entire chapter on women in Orientalist art and he discusses with great sensitivity the differences between erotic fantasy in Oreintalist paintings, and more truthful and respectful images that were painted by artists like Santoro and Bridgman. I highly recommend this book for anyone who wants to look at Orientalist art in a more balanced way.

ISBN- 0-9759783-0-6

Regards,
A'isha

Sita

Thank you v. much for posting this. I am a BA English and History student and I am planning on doing my disertation on Orientalism (focused more on literature although some art) particularly it's perceptions of eastern women.
Said's work is amazing within literary terms he revolutionised Literature studies and set the framework of post-colonial studies with the concept of the 'other' being particularly powerful; the Orient the other to Occident. But the relationship is deeper in that he proposes that our sense of idenity in the Occident is based on our relationship to the Orient. Orientalism also makes the point that our culture the 'western christian culture' is dervived from the Orient/ MED - Jesus, Judaism.
His work, although as has been mentioned is debateable and has been challenged, is particularly interesting when applied to Romantic Orientalism and the work of Colridge, Shelly and Byron (particularly as Byron lived in the Orient).
Shelly's poem Alastor is particularly shocking when relating to exoticism and sexuality particularly in relation to women - more so than the paintings, not only do you see eastern clothes fetishised but the poem is quite shocking for its time in openly and graphically describing intercourse (although by todays standards its quite tame).

Also Romantic Orientalism is not entirely negative as the Orient also was seen as a place of creative freedom (see Coleridge's and Byron's work) free of the rapid industrialisation of the west, nature and sensual freedom, an escape, but also a place where one could 'find' themself - history and cultural beginnings or the 'mysterious ancient truth of the East'- which could become bewitching thus dangerous. The main issue in this is that the Orient is only percieved and defined in the ways it is of use or concerns the 'dominant' Occident; it is never allowed to be what it is in its own time e.g. a place to discover great former civilsations - but ones now in ruins so the 'real' present orient and its people are ignored. It is quite ironic that sexuality and sensuality were deemed as being acceptable in the works of Orientalism because they were seen as being charaterisations of the Orient even though the real Orient was strictly Islamic. but then the Orient is of course not real but a construct.
It does however help explain why bellydancing is surroneded by this harem fantasy and strongly sexualised in the West thus making it appear wrongly to many people as close to stripping. And shows us where a lot of eastern sterotypes derive from - and remain.
Other good writers of Orientalism is Bryan Turner, S. Makdisi
Sita

P.S Apolagies on the bad grammar and spelling but I'm multi-tasking e.g. e-mail, research, planning b-days, Olympics as usual besides even English students get their times off mine is on the internet where I can ramble without correcting and proof-reading everything

__________________
~*Life is like a ghaziya, she dances just briefly for each.*~ - Egyptian proverb

Aisha Azar

It does however help explain why bellydancing is surroneded by this harem fantasy and sexualised thus making it appear wrongly to many people as close to stripping. And shows us where a lot of eastern sterotypes derive from - and remain.
Other good writers of Orientalism is Bryan Turner, S. Makdisi
Sita[/quote]



Dear Sita,
Actually, the dance is sexualized and given a bad rap by the people who are native to countries of origin. I do not believe that was something foisted on them by westerners. That mindset was there as long as there has been pub;ic dancing and Islam in the same space. Any time a woman does something for he public that involves her body, she is a fallen woman in Islamic culture. There is a reason why Ghawazi and other women in North Africa who danced were also prostitutes. They already would have earned that title whether or not it was true, way before any western foreigners got there. they became prostitutes in the eyes of their countrymen as soon as they got up to dance and entertain anyone. This is not an attitude that was invented by the west, though in some cases painters and others took it a step further and correlated what was reality with their own fantasies. When it came to the development of belly dance, Masabni and her contemporaries were basically thought of in that same since they were only as good as prostitutes in the eyes of their countrymen.
Regards,
A'isha

Sita

I think he suggested one way in part 2 - showing a true image of the MED in the media; a deeper more diverse one. Particularly in regards to Islam - the hijab or burqa for example is only seen as a negative oppressive garment refuting the idea that for some it is liberating and places them in a space of safety and power, as anyone whose ever done mask performance or work could explain. The issue is that of choice and whether the people are forced to wear such garments.

The trouble is Orientalism and its stereotypes are so easy and powerful for politians to use.
Education through the media and personal experience is the only way.

I also think it's interesting that the interveiw ponts out America's relationship to the MED/Orient was indirect as it had never directly occupied the MED.
I wonder how Iraq and Afghanistan has altered this?

Sita

__________________
~*Life is like a ghaziya, she dances just briefly for each.*~ - Egyptian proverb

Sita

Dear A'isha
I do not disagree with most of what you have said and how BD is seen in the MED. However one aspect of Orientalism is the sexualisation of the East and Eastern women and this concept is particularly associated with the Harem, with the imagined idea of BD being used to attract the Sultans attention and favour, and most people in the Uk when presented with the idea of Bellydancing, they refer to this Harem fantasy not to the ghawazee or prostitution stereotypes. Therefore I believe this concept to be a product of the influence of Western Orientalism and not the preception of the dance in the MED. I am not talking about how the MED sees BD but the West; as I believe these two oppinions derive from different sources. For example Salome's dance of the Seven Veils; it is a Western concept eroticising the Eastern women but does not derive from the East itself. There was no Dance of the 7 veils there and the Bible itself does not mention any such dance. Some have loosely drawn ideas that it comes from the myth of Ishtar's descent into the underworld but have yet to show a link from the existence of this myth to the pen of Wilde or any of his sources. Nor does that change the fact that there was no such dance in the MED; it is purely a fantasy a product of Orientalism as is this sexualised harem image of BD in the UK.
yours respectfully,
Sita

__________________
~*Life is like a ghaziya, she dances just briefly for each.*~ - Egyptian proverb

lizaj

Keep this going ladies....eating popcorn

Caroline_afifi

How interesting. When did the 'Arabs' leave?
Arabic is the language and not a second or side language in Egypt and the Berbers are a minority group whilst Arabic and French dominate the rest.
I think this is a perspective and may depend on who you talk to.

Also, the Irish say that the English changed their language and this assisted in wiping out a culture and history (or at laest was a strategy).
So does changeing ones religion from Catholic to Protestant.
No one really settled in Ireland from England either...
but there has been a huge battle about this ever since.