masrawy

it has nothing to do with religion its a matter of "public safety" I know I'll lose some friends for this one. Genuinely need to drive or want to drive ... well you only can see what you want to see. I hate to break it to you the unfortunately not wealthy Saudi women spend their summer in Cairo, the fortunate one will go to London, Paris and NYC You would want to trad place with them.

__________________
"Be beautiful , the universe will turn beautiful in your eyes!"

Aisha Azar

Dear Dipali,


I want to put this into perspective. The House of Saud is very good at making it look like the Wahabis dictate a lot more than they do. They can turn anything into a religious mandate as opposed to admitting that it is something that works out well for themselves. They seem to get around religious mandate just fine when it suits their needs, and have ever since the time when the religious leaders did not want the telephone brought into the country because they saw it is an instrument of the devil. Ibn Saud just picked up the phone and first words uttered into a telephone in Saudi Arabia were "There is no God but God." Viola!! We now have an instrument of God!!
I think I should add here that we often make the mistake of blaming on Islam what is actually more cultural tradition, or simple intelligent living within a specific environment. Actually the Prophet Mohamed (Peace be on him) was one of the first men ever to believe in womens' rights at all. His mandates about education, business, inheritance and all other benefits for women came at a time when women all over the rest of the world were still being treated like so many heads of cattle, and that goes for Europe, too. what we see as religious mandate is often nothing more than using religion as a political and social tool. Nawal Sadawi sees Islam very differently than do the Wahabi religious leaders of Saudi Arabia!!

Regards,
A'isha

da Sage

Aisha posted:
"First of all, they can buy headache tablets in any store, just like us. there is no difference for the sufferer whether or not it is financial or political mandate that keeps a person from getting the medical care they need. In my country, where we are supposedly the most spoiled and rich people in the world, for a woman not to get the medical care she desperately needs is just as hideous as any other situation in which medical care is denied. I have watched my daughter suffer with 2 kinds of cancer, with endometriosis invading her intestines, with interstitial cystitis as a result of endometriosis that was allowed to get so severe that it damaged other organs so that they can not be repaired. Don't tell her or me that requiring the signature of a male relative is worse than being denied treatment when you need it because you are poor."

Meaning no disrespect to your daughter's situation, I do see a difference between 50% of the population being at risk of no treatment upon the whim of a relative, and health care being out of reach for the poor (and occasionally middle class) in a country where it should be affordable to everyone. Both are unjust. One is a basic human rights issue; the other is an economic human rights issue.

Aisha Azar

Dear daSage,
They are BOTH human rights issues, and both do not meetbasic needs. We also are not taking into account the fact that it is also mandated by Saudi society that men take care of the needs of women, so that most of them probably have as good if not better attention given to their medical care than most of us, where too many people can not afford the insurance to get good care. My husband is 58 years old and was eligible for retirement 2 years ago, but he can not retire because we could not afford to take care of our insurance without the union benefit. We are two of the lucky ones who have a $500,000 cap on medical expenses over our lifetimes before we are on our own. Since he has had a heart attack and has two stents, and spent 3 days in ICU with a submandibular infection and was in the hospital for 8 all told, God knows hpow much we have left.... And, just like here, if the situation is emergent, then the woman probably gets care and people are asked questions later. It is not on the "whim of A relative" that women receive medical care or do not. It is sounding way worse than it actually is . The entire socio/cultural system is set up to not let very many people fall through the cracks.( At least the natives... how expatriates are treated is a different song, kind of like those here who import people they use as virtual slaves in their homes, in their bordellos, etc.) Most women have cousins, uncles, brothers, and a host of other males in their lives that will do their best to see she gets what she needs. Many men who MIGHT be tempted to neglect a wife or daughter's health will not do so because they are afraid it would not look good, if for no other reason. Abuse of women is no higher there than here. Their system is not better or worse; just different. It is always easier to point a finger at the one who is different from us and say their system has failings that we are too good to admit are happening just as blatantly in our own.
Regards,
A'isha

jenc

Yes but it is still different. In actual fact I can see that economic injustice is harder to fight as there are enough of the well-off who blame the poor, or even just think it will never happen to them that they get sick.
i still wouldn't want to trade places with a Saudi woman.

Aisha Azar

And many of them would not want to trade places with us!! They see us as in danger of getting raped or robbed or beat up, having NO choice but to work and not being able to keep all of our money for ourselves even if we want to, having to do all of our own housework because even the sort of poor in Saudi can afford a maid, not having strong familial ties or feeling like we can call our brother or father when we need help because we are too busy being strong and independent. Many of them would not be in our shoes for the world. I know this from personal conversations with many different Saudis about how they view what goes on in our countries as well as what goes on in theirs.
Regards,
A'isha

Caroline_afifi

I think it depends on the Saudi woman.

Saudi has good health care and the healthcare in the West is far more complex. My friend is from Uzbekistan and when she goes to a doctor (and she has to pay) they ALWAYS find something wrong and give her medicine.
Health care is free in the UK and they NEVER find something wrong.. til it's too late.

I feel very sorry for A'ishas daughter. I think it is a human disgrace for anyone to be in that position any where in the world but it is a double insult for it to happen in a wealthy non third world country.

I work with people in the UK who truly dont recognise their rights so therefore do not have any.
We have rights and access to many things but we still have to fight for it in the UK. Some just dont have any fight left.

Culture and traditions do dictate more than the Holy books in most countries.
It is doctors who think they are God in the UK.

Aisha Azar

Dear Caroline,
I very much appreciate you recognizing just how horrible it is for her. She had her first surgery for endometriosis at 19 years old. She continued to work and take care of herself in spite of that. After her son was born when she was 23, she continued to work, go to school so she could get a college degree for a better job, and raise her child. When she was 25, she got worse and worse, and has worked off and on since, but recently she has just been too ill. She paid taxes before then that should be paying for her to get quality care now. I agree this is a huge crime in a country where so many here consider us to be so very superior to those Third World places. In my mind, it is not a contest to see who is worse anyway. It should be about meeting the basic human needs no matter where you are and in the country where I live, this is surely more possible than it is in many others. Yet there are so many people in a position just like my daughter's. Some of them have worked hard all their lives and end up losing everything including their homes to pay for medical catastrophes. Its wrong, and it is just as wrong as a woman having to get permission from her husband to get medical treatment. At least is IS available to her when she needs it.
Regards,
A'isha

gypsy8522

Dipali,

I don't know about A'isha, but I certainly don't have any kind of Saudi connection whatsoever, I wish! I think the only difference between me and others is that I get my info straight from the source, rather than CNN and extreme articles coming out of the internet. By the way, I do watch Tash Ma Tash
Now, at Medical treatment, do you personally know of someone who went up to a pharmacy and got denied headache pills? The medical story is just hmm... another reason not to believe everything I read.

While I could not see the connection at first between not being able to afford healthcare in the US vs. being denied healthcare in Saudi Arabia, but after reading the latest posts and coming to think of it, there isn't much of a difference really. All paths lead to Rome.

I never heard about that medicine law in Saudi Arabia. Therefore, I'm not sure how true or effective it is, so I won't comment on it. But from what I see and judging by its most recent policies, the US government has chosen petroleum and national economic interest over basic health care needs and human rights. Forget Iraq. American citizens are obliged to pay income taxes that can go up to 40 percent, yet a large portion of the population cannot afford health insurance. The masses work their butts off physically and mentally so that at the end of the day one third their earnings goes into weapons and funding of global killing sprees?! yet if your finger ever gets cut and you need to go to the hospital to get it stiched you're expected to pay enormous amounts of money. Isn't this theft of tax dollars a form of humanitarian injustice? And I bet those war profiteering officials sitting in the white house don't have to worry about a thing if "they" ever get sick.

There are no income taxes in Saudi Arabia. They have a good medical care system and if something severe happens to you, you are taken care of immedietly. They will even go as far as flying you abroad if required, and it's all paid for on the government's expense. Meanwhile, the United States has one of the best healthcare technology in the World, but unfortunately only the privelleged few have access to it. I think this may be one of the reasons while growing up I barely had any encounters with Saudi Arabians, these people don't really have a good reason to leave their country. And you would be surprized by the amount of Eastern and Western expats living there, Americans making up the biggest portion of the Western population. Okay, so they can't drive cars and they have to cover up when they go out on the road. Well, I guess that's the opportunity cost of living a tax free life, enjoying a good medical care system and not having to worry about insurance and endless bills. Even the house or apartment rent your company/employer is responsible for.

Now while I don't see myself living in Saudi Arabia, NOT even in a million years for various reasons, I don't think that my way of life or upbringing is better than them. What I see as perfect, may to someone else seem flawed. Because the fact is there is no ideal system, there is no perfect world where we can control everything. What truly bothers me though, is that some people are still conviced until this day that they are better and superior, so everyone surrounding them is expected "by force" to switch to their ideals. If there's one thing that should be sent back to the middle ages, it would be this arrogant egocentric point of view.


Now going back to your comment about women not being able to buy headache tablets whether they can afford them or not.. I think you are just too honest and innocent to think that You are probably thinking from an Australian perspective too, where the law applies on everybody without exception. Let me tell you, that is NOT how things work in Saudi Arabia. A lot of times the law is "for display only". Keep in mind they are a monarchy, they need ridiculous laws like that to scare the masses, however it doesn't mean that in real life everyone abides by these laws.

masrawy

I would like to add a little perspective of the Quraan & Haddiss on women right and the Equality between men and women. it is crystal clear in Islam and don't forget this stuff is over 1400 years ago.

__________________
"Be beautiful , the universe will turn beautiful in your eyes!"