Sensibilities and sensitivities when in Egypt - Page 2

Caroline_afifi · 07-12-2008, 10:46 AM

One of the things that often annoys me in Egypt is seeing foreign women being touched and kissed.

If you are touched by any man in the bazaar etc. dont be polite and smile... tell him to get off! I had a row with a man in the bazaar about this a few months ago. He told me that he 'knows' foreign women and he 'knows' they love to be touched etc. I told him they were guests and were just being polite.

I then saw woman chatting, laughing and being hugged and kissed etc... and thought how stupid I had made myself look. It has become part of the tourist culture but it is one I personally do not like.

I was in Felfelas by the Mena House last week and the waiters were kissing the dancers on the cheeks as hugging them as they came in. This may all sound very innocent but it is far more complex than most care to imagine.

Friends in Egypt may greet each other with a 'peck' on each cheek in but there is no real big 'smackers' followed by a tight embrace. Even a handshake is a tentative meeting of the hands.

A male friend should sit across the table from you and not beside you.

Any compliments of beauty and 'eyes like the Nile' is not the usual norm either. Men do not talk to other Egyptian women in this way. It is a ploy adopted by people in tourism. There is also a saying for this in Egypt 'you have to treat the animal well before you eat it'.

Egyptian men outside of tourism do not behave in this way at all.

Aisha Azar · 07-12-2008, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

One of the things that often annoys me in Egypt is seeing foreign women being touched and kissed.

Friends in Egypt may greet each other with a 'peck' on each cheek in but there is no real big 'smackers' followed by a tight embrace. Even a handshake is a tentative meeting of the hands.

Egyptian men outside of tourism do not behave in this way at all.

Dear Caroline,
I have often wondered about the softish, barely there touching your fingers handshakes of the women and men of the Middle East. So different from the hearty American style handshake. I had never thought of it in this context before, but of course, you are correct! It is not only Egyptians, but throughout the Middle East. Now, once people have gotten to know me well, the women in many cases are almost more handsy that I could deal with at first, touching each other and me and ways that would be considered inappropriate in the West. It seems to go from one extreme to the other!! And in public of course it is usually a different matter. Nobody in any of the tourist places acted out of line physically, but I did get three marriage proposals from the same shop keeper!!
Regards,
A'isha

Lydia dubai · 07-12-2008, 02:17 PM

Forget the huggy,s touchees, kissies, habbits....In the middle east men dont hug touch or kiss woman... only their mothers or sisters ,perhaps and again perhaps close relative,s...if you alowe them to do so you give a wrong message and they can easy understand you wrong...people in the middle east are very nice but think differant than in the west....hugging kissing enz make them think she realy likes me a lot,or that you are easy goiing...they can not do this with arabic girls...it is not acceptable..beside that if i go to spain or england as a tourist i dont let the shopkeeper kiss me either so why in Cairo????

Lydia dubai · 07-12-2008, 02:27 PM

Hi Caroline ...you are talking about the festival and that dancers are goiing out after and not beiing dressed properly...it is to bad because already the ahlan festival is getting lots of negative story,s in the egyptian newspapers....this is not helping the case...again i think it is the responsability from the organisers and teachers to ask kindly and inform the poeple attending to respect themself and dont go like that in the street like that ....like this the people from the festival become their own enemy,s...they must try harder to keep it all nice, again on and offstage !Specialy if you have people that have never gone to the middle east before and are not familiar with the country,s habbits...beside that i can only imagion the trouble those dancers can get in,goiing like that in the street,not very good !!

Aisha Azar · 07-12-2008, 03:03 PM

Dear Lydia,
Whenever a person travels anywhere, they need to first try to discover the morals and ethics and general behaviors of the people there and then try to follow etiquette, clothing and other guidelines very closely.
I have found that just as much as westerners act out in the Middle East, Middle Easteners sometimes act out here. They come in judgment of our morality and often start with the belief that all western women are sluts. I knew a guy who lived here for four years, was good friends with my husband and me, yet referred to American men in general as "White dogs". It is a two way street and this might be part of the problem when western women go to Egypt, also. Many people have already decided we are sluts without even meeting us. What we wear might not change their opinion in the least, but I still think we should try to dress appropriately to the moral and dress code of the country. I certainly does not hurt and might even help.
Meanwhile when some Arab guy tries to pick me up in a club in MY country and then tells me I must be available because I am wearing an off the shoulder sweater, I let him have it and inform him quite obnoxiously that this is America and I can wear what I want without it being a personal invitation to him! (That's kind of fun!)
Regards,
A'isha

Caroline_afifi · 07-12-2008, 03:09 PM

Yes people do need to be correctly informed before travelling. The trouble is, sometimes the people informing are not always correctly informed.

I opend this thread to initiate discussion around this subject in order to achieve a little more understanding.

Not many people have written here but perhaps many will read so the information is passed on and provides some food for thought.

I dont want people to feel stupid or embarrased if they have been like this in Egypt, I just want people to be better informed so they can be more prepared next time.

The other thing I want to raise is about the wearing of galabiyas outdoors.
I met a dancer years ago who wore a galabiya out everwhere with a scarf wrapped around her head. She told me it was cool to blend in with the natives. I dont want anyone to be under the impression that this is the case as it really is not. Egyptians in tourist areas are used to seeing just about everything from Kylie hotpants to galabiyas so nothing really shocks them anymore, but walking around Cairo in a galabiya is more likely to attract attention or ridicule and make you stand out as a tourist.

My mum in law has a selection of galabiyas from Saudi and so do I. We wear them around the house but never outdoors. Walking around in jeans and T-shirts is perfectly fine. Loose cotton sleeves maybe more appropriate in some local areas. It is not this strict that you must cover from head to toe.
Christians are not expected to cover their hair so this is not nessesary to do so and you are not showing respect by doing this, unless it is to a place were you are required too (and there are not many). Most visits to Mosques do not require covering your head either.

Is is pretty much the same in UAE Lydia?

Aisha Azar · 07-12-2008, 03:22 PM

Dear Caroline and Gang,
Most countries have websites that are attached to their tourist info or even to embassies where a traveler who is interested can read about what to wear, what immunizations they should have, what areas are safe or unsafe, dietary advice, and a whole bunch of other info about countries where you might visit, what requirements are for visiting etc. For example, it is not possible to visit some Middle Eastern countries without a sponsor, even if you are going to work there. Anyone can take the time to learn.
Also, I don't know if leaders are still doing this, but it used to be that they gave careful instructions in dance tour literature about what was appropriate to wear when outside the confines of the dance festival venue.
Regards,
A'isha

da Sage · 07-12-2008, 03:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

Yes people do need to be correctly informed before travelling. The trouble is, sometimes the people informing are not always correctly informed.

I opend this thread to initiate discussion around this subject in order to achieve a little more understanding.

Not many people have written here but perhaps many will read so the information is passed on and provides some food for thought.

I dont want people to feel stupid or embarrased if they have been like this in Egypt, I just want people to be better informed so they can be more prepared next time.

The other thing I want to raise is about the wearing of galabiyas outdoors.
I met a dancer years ago who wore a galabiya out everwhere with a scarf wrapped around her head. She told me it was cool to blend in with the natives. I dont want anyone to be under the impression that this is the case as it really is not. Egyptians in tourist areas are used to seeing just about everything from Kylie hotpants to galabiyas so nothing really shocks them anymore, but walking around Cairo in a galabiya is more likely to attract attention or ridicule and make you stand out as a tourist.

My mum in law has a selection of galabiyas from Saudi and so do I. We wear them around the house but never outdoors. Walking around in jeans and T-shirts is perfectly fine. Loose cotton sleeves maybe more appropriate in some local areas. It is not this strict that you must cover from head to toe.
Christians are not expected to cover their hair so this is not nessesary to do so and you are not showing respect by doing this, unless it is to a place were you are required too (and there are not many). Most visits to Mosques do not require covering your head either.

Is is pretty much the same in UAE Lydia?

I assumed that wearing a long-sleeved, cleavage-less shirt and a head wrap would be seen as signs of respect toward the locals. Curious...are western hats worn, and what is the reaction to them? I would not want to be outside during the day at that latitude without one, and thought that a head wrap might be a reasonable substitute. But really, a straw hat or baseball cap would be more comfortable.

da Sage · 07-12-2008, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

One of the things that often annoys me in Egypt is seeing foreign women being touched and kissed.

If you are touched by any man in the bazaar etc. dont be polite and smile... tell him to get off! I had a row with a man in the bazaar about this a few months ago. He told me that he 'knows' foreign women and he 'knows' they love to be touched etc. I told him they were guests and were just being polite.

I then saw woman chatting, laughing and being hugged and kissed etc... and thought how stupid I had made myself look. It has become part of the tourist culture but it is one I personally do not like.

I was in Felfelas by the Mena House last week and the waiters were kissing the dancers on the cheeks as hugging them as they came in. This may all sound very innocent but it is far more complex than most care to imagine.

Friends in Egypt may greet each other with a 'peck' on each cheek in but there is no real big 'smackers' followed by a tight embrace. Even a handshake is a tentative meeting of the hands.

A male friend should sit across the table from you and not beside you.

Any compliments of beauty and 'eyes like the Nile' is not the usual norm either. Men do not talk to other Egyptian women in this way. It is a ploy adopted by people in tourism. There is also a saying for this in Egypt 'you have to treat the animal well before you eat it'.

Egyptian men outside of tourism do not behave in this way at all.

It is good to know this is a problem. I think foreign women find themselves in this situation and try to be polite. It is better to be prepared with a quick comeback, and an elbow or two!

Lydia dubai · 07-12-2008, 03:55 PM

Dear Caroline...in the UAE it is very differant than in Egypt...i worked in egypt for 1 and half years before i came to the UAE..i also have a home just outside Cairo so i do visit Egypt still regulair...In the Uae it is very differant then in Egypt woman are realy protected here ofcourse their are extreme cases but i live here sindts 1986...the only big trouble i hade was trying to save a chimp from miserable life it almost caused me everything i worked for...but beside that i never hade a problem,man dont behave like in egypt it is differant they are more polite if you give the signal,,i dont want,,just by giving him a nasty look its over...if he will still not back off i only open my mouth and tell him loudly that i dont want and he will very fast go away...i dont cover my hair ..but also never wear miniskirts or bare sholders ..not to much makeup and no tide fitting clothes...i honestly can not remember the day that i was having troubles beiing in the uae aslong you are trying to be senseable its fine ..i feel much safer here than in the country where i was born...i can not enter the mosk if i dont cover my hair do...Dubai is very open and girls are out and about in shorts all over the place,but i dont live in Dubai but in a smaller city outside...i have to be honest i dont agree with girls goiing to the mall in shorts ..it is after all a islamic country and i think you must little bit try to remember that...than the good part is ladys are always first like in the post office i dont qeu i can go strait to the front,so aswell in many other places...this is to prevent ladys be between men and perhaps beiing ,,brushed,,lol...so it is nicely arranged overhere...yes Ai.sha i agree you have to be carefull when you are a western woman people think you are easy goiing...i dont feel it aslong i dont mention that i am a dancer...that is why nobody in the area where i live knows they all think i am just a sport teacher because that is my morningjob...so they see me going with my sportbag and trainingsuit...but yes sometimes i do wanna screem and say yes so i am a dancer what do you want ???...LOL we cant have it all i geuss...but i do love this crazy sandpit and its a small price to pay for all the joy i have found here with my job as a dancer ...i am laughing when i come home and think another show llaalala and nobody caught me !!Things have changed lately do, construction as you know is booming in the UAE GEUSS WHAT Egyptians are coming now to build and work in construction overhere,keep my fingers crossed !! dont get me wrong do i love egypt there is only 1 egypt and we all love it whit all its hangups....oops long mail Sorry better go
Lydia

07-12-2008, 03:03 PM	#15 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,228	Travel Dear Lydia, Whenever a person travels anywhere, they need to first try to discover the morals and ethics and general behaviors of the people there and then try to follow etiquette, clothing and other guidelines very closely. I have found that just as much as westerners act out in the Middle East, Middle Easteners sometimes act out here. They come in judgment of our morality and often start with the belief that all western women are sluts. I knew a guy who lived here for four years, was good friends with my husband and me, yet referred to American men in general as "White dogs". It is a two way street and this might be part of the problem when western women go to Egypt, also. Many people have already decided we are sluts without even meeting us. What we wear might not change their opinion in the least, but I still think we should try to dress appropriately to the moral and dress code of the country. I certainly does not hurt and might even help. Meanwhile when some Arab guy tries to pick me up in a club in MY country and then tells me I must be available because I am wearing an off the shoulder sweater, I let him have it and inform him quite obnoxiously that this is America and I can wear what I want without it being a personal invitation to him! (That's kind of fun!) Regards, A'isha

07-12-2008, 03:22 PM	#17 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,228	Travel Dear Caroline and Gang, Most countries have websites that are attached to their tourist info or even to embassies where a traveler who is interested can read about what to wear, what immunizations they should have, what areas are safe or unsafe, dietary advice, and a whole bunch of other info about countries where you might visit, what requirements are for visiting etc. For example, it is not possible to visit some Middle Eastern countries without a sponsor, even if you are going to work there. Anyone can take the time to learn. Also, I don't know if leaders are still doing this, but it used to be that they gave careful instructions in dance tour literature about what was appropriate to wear when outside the confines of the dance festival venue. Regards, A'isha

07-12-2008, 10:46 AM	#11 (permalink)
Caroline_afifi V.I.P. Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Liverpool UK Posts: 1,054	One of the things that often annoys me in Egypt is seeing foreign women being touched and kissed. If you are touched by any man in the bazaar etc. dont be polite and smile... tell him to get off! I had a row with a man in the bazaar about this a few months ago. He told me that he 'knows' foreign women and he 'knows' they love to be touched etc. I told him they were guests and were just being polite. I then saw woman chatting, laughing and being hugged and kissed etc... and thought how stupid I had made myself look. It has become part of the tourist culture but it is one I personally do not like. I was in Felfelas by the Mena House last week and the waiters were kissing the dancers on the cheeks as hugging them as they came in. This may all sound very innocent but it is far more complex than most care to imagine. Friends in Egypt may greet each other with a 'peck' on each cheek in but there is no real big 'smackers' followed by a tight embrace. Even a handshake is a tentative meeting of the hands. A male friend should sit across the table from you and not beside you. Any compliments of beauty and 'eyes like the Nile' is not the usual norm either. Men do not talk to other Egyptian women in this way. It is a ploy adopted by people in tourism. There is also a saying for this in Egypt 'you have to treat the animal well before you eat it'. Egyptian men outside of tourism do not behave in this way at all.

07-12-2008, 02:17 PM	#13 (permalink)
Lydia dubai V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Dubai United arab emirates Posts: 1,288	Forget the huggy,s touchees, kissies, habbits....In the middle east men dont hug touch or kiss woman... only their mothers or sisters ,perhaps and again perhaps close relative,s...if you alowe them to do so you give a wrong message and they can easy understand you wrong...people in the middle east are very nice but think differant than in the west....hugging kissing enz make them think she realy likes me a lot,or that you are easy goiing...they can not do this with arabic girls...it is not acceptable..beside that if i go to spain or england as a tourist i dont let the shopkeeper kiss me either so why in Cairo????

07-12-2008, 02:27 PM	#14 (permalink)
Lydia dubai V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Dubai United arab emirates Posts: 1,288	Hi Caroline ...you are talking about the festival and that dancers are goiing out after and not beiing dressed properly...it is to bad because already the ahlan festival is getting lots of negative story,s in the egyptian newspapers....this is not helping the case...again i think it is the responsability from the organisers and teachers to ask kindly and inform the poeple attending to respect themself and dont go like that in the street like that ....like this the people from the festival become their own enemy,s...they must try harder to keep it all nice, again on and offstage !Specialy if you have people that have never gone to the middle east before and are not familiar with the country,s habbits...beside that i can only imagion the trouble those dancers can get in,goiing like that in the street,not very good !!

07-12-2008, 03:09 PM	#16 (permalink)
Caroline_afifi V.I.P. Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Liverpool UK Posts: 1,054	Yes people do need to be correctly informed before travelling. The trouble is, sometimes the people informing are not always correctly informed. I opend this thread to initiate discussion around this subject in order to achieve a little more understanding. Not many people have written here but perhaps many will read so the information is passed on and provides some food for thought. I dont want people to feel stupid or embarrased if they have been like this in Egypt, I just want people to be better informed so they can be more prepared next time. The other thing I want to raise is about the wearing of galabiyas outdoors. I met a dancer years ago who wore a galabiya out everwhere with a scarf wrapped around her head. She told me it was cool to blend in with the natives. I dont want anyone to be under the impression that this is the case as it really is not. Egyptians in tourist areas are used to seeing just about everything from Kylie hotpants to galabiyas so nothing really shocks them anymore, but walking around Cairo in a galabiya is more likely to attract attention or ridicule and make you stand out as a tourist. My mum in law has a selection of galabiyas from Saudi and so do I. We wear them around the house but never outdoors. Walking around in jeans and T-shirts is perfectly fine. Loose cotton sleeves maybe more appropriate in some local areas. It is not this strict that you must cover from head to toe. Christians are not expected to cover their hair so this is not nessesary to do so and you are not showing respect by doing this, unless it is to a place were you are required too (and there are not many). Most visits to Mosques do not require covering your head either. Is is pretty much the same in UAE Lydia?

07-12-2008, 03:55 PM	#20 (permalink)
Lydia dubai V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Dubai United arab emirates Posts: 1,288	Dear Caroline...in the UAE it is very differant than in Egypt...i worked in egypt for 1 and half years before i came to the UAE..i also have a home just outside Cairo so i do visit Egypt still regulair...In the Uae it is very differant then in Egypt woman are realy protected here ofcourse their are extreme cases but i live here sindts 1986...the only big trouble i hade was trying to save a chimp from miserable life it almost caused me everything i worked for...but beside that i never hade a problem,man dont behave like in egypt it is differant they are more polite if you give the signal,,i dont want,,just by giving him a nasty look its over...if he will still not back off i only open my mouth and tell him loudly that i dont want and he will very fast go away...i dont cover my hair ..but also never wear miniskirts or bare sholders ..not to much makeup and no tide fitting clothes...i honestly can not remember the day that i was having troubles beiing in the uae aslong you are trying to be senseable its fine ..i feel much safer here than in the country where i was born...i can not enter the mosk if i dont cover my hair do...Dubai is very open and girls are out and about in shorts all over the place,but i dont live in Dubai but in a smaller city outside...i have to be honest i dont agree with girls goiing to the mall in shorts ..it is after all a islamic country and i think you must little bit try to remember that...than the good part is ladys are always first like in the post office i dont qeu i can go strait to the front,so aswell in many other places...this is to prevent ladys be between men and perhaps beiing ,,brushed,,lol...so it is nicely arranged overhere...yes Ai.sha i agree you have to be carefull when you are a western woman people think you are easy goiing...i dont feel it aslong i dont mention that i am a dancer...that is why nobody in the area where i live knows they all think i am just a sport teacher because that is my morningjob...so they see me going with my sportbag and trainingsuit...but yes sometimes i do wanna screem and say yes so i am a dancer what do you want ???...LOL we cant have it all i geuss...but i do love this crazy sandpit and its a small price to pay for all the joy i have found here with my job as a dancer ...i am laughing when i come home and think another show llaalala and nobody caught me !!Things have changed lately do, construction as you know is booming in the UAE GEUSS WHAT Egyptians are coming now to build and work in construction overhere,keep my fingers crossed !! dont get me wrong do i love egypt there is only 1 egypt and we all love it whit all its hangups....oops long mail Sorry better go Lydia