Egypt Cracks Down On Urfi Marriages - Page 2

Caroline_afifi · 04-29-2008, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gypsy8522

I see where you're coming from, but you can't really compare British society with Egyptian culture which is very deeply rooted in traditions and religion. Of course everything I say here is a generalization and there are always exceptions to the rule, but I am speaking about marriage in Egypt IN GENERAL, if I was to speak about individualistic human traits, that would be a different story. However, marriage in Egypt is not only about individuals (as it is in the European countries), we still have this issue of the family and society that has to be taken care of.

Yes, I agree with you but Egyptian society is very like British society many years ago. The more I have been part of it the more I have been able to draw on the similarities. My grandfather was Syrian and I thought he was very English until I became part of an Egyptian family. Now I can see how Arab he was. The social manners are very similar. We have a programme here called 'keeping up appearances' and I keep saying to my husband 'they should bring out an Egyptian version!' I can go on forever making examples actually.
I know I have been lucky, our marriage has lasted longer than my brother in laws who was married to an equally wealthy Egyptian from a very good family and none of them can stand each other now.

gypsy8522 · 05-03-2008, 10:23 AM

One of my childhood friends who got married last year, she was only 19, just got a divorce 3 months ago. Aparently "the in-laws" her mother and her husband's mother were never able to get along and they were always fighting, and this created problems, so the girl decided she doesn't want to be married anymore. Anyway, the guy was a bastard and refused to divorce her (of course, he was taking orders from his mother!), so she opted for khol3 where she basically went to court and removed him from wedlock but the judge ordered that she give back all the jewelery and gifts he had given her. She's now already engaged to another guy! When I asked her what is it that she likes about him, she said "his mother is dead".....

So, I think you get the picture LOL.. your Egyptian marriage would not have lasted untill now if your husband's parents had an issue with you

Reen.Blom · 05-03-2008, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gypsy8522

I was going to come back and write here, but you took the words out of my mouth!

Marriage in Egypt is all about one thing: social class. In Egypt we never use the word "zawag" marriage or "khotooba" engagement except later on, in earlier phases we say "nasab" ( doesn't really translate to english), and this usually involves approval of the WHOLE familly. That is why a well educated, succesful man would want to marry a girl with similar attributes, why go for the Western woman (zero nasab) when he can marry a nice, well educated girl, who shares the same cultural values and religion, and who is lets say the daughter of an ex-defense minister or a well known familly... when a son or daughter goes home and tells the parents there is someone the first thing the parents will ask "from what family?", the second/last name is very very important, that's why in wedding invitations you always see the bride and groom name in microscopic font, while the names of the mother/father AND their professions (i.e. doctor, minister, engineer) and both family names are written in bold.

The problem, especially right now because the economy is down and with high unemployment rates, it is not always possible for a young Egyptian man to find an Egyptian or even Arabic bride, a lot of girls especially those getting married for the first time, they ask for very high dowries and other things that men most men cannot afford, while western women usually will just accept whatever because they don't have all these cultural norms. While I sympathize with these women because some (I said some) Egyptian men can be extremly manipulative and will get to them under the name of love just to get a green card or a way out of the country or whatever, I feel they should take part of the blame for not having common sense (Waiter, poor, 15 years younger than you, all these are not good signs).

In my opinion Orfi marriage is not a real marriage. By Islamic law, it is required that a marriage be PUBLIC for it to be legal. When you are "married" but keep it hidden from all your friends, family and you don't have anything registered whether with a ma2zoon or in court, how does this constitute a marriage?

By the way, it doesn't say in the article, but after the Hind Hennawi case a draft law was issued which makes DNA testing mandatory in paternity cases. I still don't see why girls would even do this to themselves, because with orfi it's always the girl who gets screwed over in the end.

gypsy, sweetie pie, thank you for this post, very educating! I never knew all these things!

Caroline_afifi · 05-03-2008, 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gypsy8522

One of my childhood friends who got married last year, she was only 19, just got a divorce 3 months ago. Aparently "the in-laws" her mother and her husband's mother were never able to get along and they were always fighting, and this created problems, so the girl decided she doesn't want to be married anymore. Anyway, the guy was a bastard and refused to divorce her (of course, he was taking orders from his mother!), so she opted for khol3 where she basically went to court and removed him from wedlock but the judge ordered that she give back all the jewelery and gifts he had given her. She's now already engaged to another guy! When I asked her what is it that she likes about him, she said "his mother is dead".....

So, I think you get the picture LOL.. your Egyptian marriage would not have lasted untill now if your husband's parents had an issue with you

The lawyers are making a fortune in just specialising in the Khol3, mostly men by the way. I think many woman are taking advantage of this new law. It does not change the stigma of course. It is the same as being a divorced woman and all the taboo's which go hand in hand with this.

Reen.Blom · 05-03-2008, 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

The lawyers are making a fortune in just specialising in the Khol3, mostly men by the way. I think many woman are taking advantage of this new law. It does not change the stigma of course. It is the same as being a divorced woman and all the taboo's which go hand in hand with this.

What's it about being divorced?

Caroline_afifi · 05-03-2008, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reen.Blom

What's it about being divorced?

Firstly, she will not be a virgin. Secondly, she may have children.
Attitudes of the people around her may mean she is constantly watched by others to monitor her behaviour. She maybe perceived as a 'loose' woman and be harrassed from men who think she will now be easy and looking for sex.
She will have less chioce about a future husband and will probably marry someone much older. She may never marry again. People often wonder what the problems were and blame her and see her as the difficult one.
She may lose her kids if they are over 6 years old.
It is not an easy option.

Reen.Blom · 05-03-2008, 02:37 PM

Sounds bad.... who would take her kids? Father? Hmmmm things dont seem so bad looking back on growing up with divorced parents....

Caroline_afifi · 05-03-2008, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reen.Blom

Sounds bad.... who would take her kids? Father? Hmmmm things dont seem so bad looking back on growing up with divorced parents....

Yes, but not in all cases, usually where things have turned bad. I know someone who took the sons but left the daughter. A women has to prove in the family court that she is capable of looking after the children.
Divorce and family courts are an ordeal everywhere and in the Uk we can longer take custody for granted (as mothers).

gypsy8522 · 05-03-2008, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Caroline_afifi

Firstly, she will not be a virgin. Secondly, she may have children..........She will have less chioce about a future husband and will probably marry someone much older. She may never marry again.

Yes, this is a very frustrating mentality. I know this girl who was in a relationship with a guy much older than she is, and he has a child from a previous marriage, her parents almost died when they found out, and of course she ended up not marrying him. I can't even imagine what MY parents reaction will be if I was in that situation. Sometimes I feel like we're dealing with vehicles not human beings, it's like saying why get a second hand car while you can get one that is brand new.

Quote:

People often wonder what the problems were and blame her and see her as the difficult one.

You know in divorce cases there is always two versions of the story. So, when the woman, her familly, and friends go around telling "her story", she will get sympathy.... people will say aw well, it wasn't her fault, the guy's a bastard and it's her "naseeb" or fate. The SECOND time however, the whole society is going to think there's something wrong with her and she is likely to get blamed for both failed marriages.

Quote:

She may lose her kids if they are over 6 years old.

The problem is there is no set law code for custody, there are 4 different mazhabs or juristic schools.

Under the Maliki juristic school or "mazhab", it states that the mother should get custody of the boy until he reaches puberty and custody of the girl until she gets married.

The Hanbali mazhab says that a mother should get custody until the child reaches 7 years old, from that point the child is asked to choose between parents.

The Shaf3i mazhab requires that a mother get custody until an age to be determined by the court, after that the child gets to choose between parents.

And the Hanafi mazhab states that a mother's custody ends with the child's puberty, it's around 8-12 years for the boy and there is no exact age that is set for a girl's custody, it could be anywhere from 9 years old until her adult years. I believe that most official marriages in Egypt are conducted under that Hanafi mazhab. And of course, there are always those who are able to find ways around these laws.

Pia · 05-04-2008, 07:11 AM

The problem is there is no set law code for custody, there are 4 different mazhabs or juristic schools.

I can see why divorce is a less than easy option with these rules-how do people decde which juristic school thier case is judged under?

05-03-2008, 02:37 PM	#17 (permalink)
Reen.Blom V.I.P. Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Between Heaven and Earth Posts: 2,262	Sounds bad.... who would take her kids? Father? Hmmmm things dont seem so bad looking back on growing up with divorced parents.... __________________ Join WORLD BELLY DANCE DAY! www.worldbellydanceday.com

05-03-2008, 10:23 AM	#12 (permalink)
gypsy8522 Moderator Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 558	One of my childhood friends who got married last year, she was only 19, just got a divorce 3 months ago. Aparently "the in-laws" her mother and her husband's mother were never able to get along and they were always fighting, and this created problems, so the girl decided she doesn't want to be married anymore. Anyway, the guy was a bastard and refused to divorce her (of course, he was taking orders from his mother!), so she opted for khol3 where she basically went to court and removed him from wedlock but the judge ordered that she give back all the jewelery and gifts he had given her. She's now already engaged to another guy! When I asked her what is it that she likes about him, she said "his mother is dead"..... So, I think you get the picture LOL.. your Egyptian marriage would not have lasted untill now if your husband's parents had an issue with you

05-04-2008, 07:11 AM	#20 (permalink)
Pia Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Cearleon Wales Posts: 101	The problem is there is no set law code for custody, there are 4 different mazhabs or juristic schools. I can see why divorce is a less than easy option with these rules-how do people decde which juristic school thier case is judged under?