Learning Arabic - Page 3

Mariyam · 09-23-2007, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shanazel

Is translation literary and interpretation oral? Please explain the difference to the curious among us.

Yes, that's usually the way to difference the two. To some extent, you could say that it's the same thing (translation) because of the "process" being the same (i.e. the translation process, taking a message in the source language and producing a message in the target language that is true to the source message while also being relevant in the target language)

But when we're talking about someone serving as an intermediary between two speakers of two different languages (simultaneous), or someone reformulating something that is being said in a foreign language into another language (consecutive) without interaction, this is interpretation in terms of the definition of the profession, not translation.

I know I'm a bit off-topic here, but I often read comments from professional interpreters (in court, in hospitals, conferences, etc.) who struggle to make the public aware that they are not translators but interpreters, as these are two different professions using different skills and talents, so I just wanted to set the record straight

Back to the topic now

Aisha Azar · 09-23-2007, 01:46 PM

Dear Mariyam,
I am often the recipient of the kindness of people who are willing to tell me what the Arabic is in English. What I find is that the goal is to tell me the IDEA behind what is being said, because the literal translation might not make sense in English, or because there is no exact interpretation for the feeling or meaning behind the words, because it is so culturally or environmentally tied to the people who speak the language in that dialect, with those colloquialisms. For example, Arabs say they have "Wasta". ( I have also heard this called "Fittimin Wow" or Vitamin W in English!) The word when translated means "person of influence", but in many ways it means much more than that because this person could have so much input and influence in an outcome. It is more than saying "I know somebody who could help", like here. Another example; the Eskimo people of Northwestern part of the world have many, many words for snow. Their lives are dependent on understanding different kinds of snow, so if one were to translate or interpret exact meanings of snow within the Eskimo cultures and environments, they would have to have a far deeper understanding of snow than the average guy in the lower 48 States or in the rest of Canada or Russia have. I think I understand where you are going with the "interpretor versus translator" concept, and I think it is very valid to this discussion.
Regards,
A'isha

cathy · 09-23-2007, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pearl

Do you mean to say that not many people learn arabic nowadays? Or have I misunderstood? I was going to start learning it about 2 years ago, just as a hobby. Instead I started turkish. Is arabic really difficult?

Hi Pearl,

Interesting what you say about both learning Turkish and also your native language being Maltese. And I think you said it was the only one using Latin characters.

I was just reading about the history of Turkish. During the Ottoman period (1299-1922) the region spoke a combination of Persian, Arabic, and Turkish and wrote in Arabic characters. Then in 1927-28, Ataturk "purified" the language by eliminating all Arabic and Persian loan words and changing the written language to the Latin alphabet--but adding a lot of diacritical marks. All the old poetry and literature was "translated" from Ottoman Turkish to modern Turkish.

Cathy

pearl · 09-23-2007, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Latifa

Ooh! This is fun, seeing where some of the words come from. Is the "x" in rnexxielek and xi haga pronounced like an sh sound? It looks like these words are related to Arabic words/expressions I know. Some of the words, however, could be Martian instead of Maltese.

Here's the Maltese Wiki link:

Paġna prinċipali - Wikipedija

and the original Wiki page on the Maltese language that led me there:

Maltese language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Very interesting stuff -- at least to a languge geek like me. Sorry to hijack the Arabic thread, though.

You're on the right track Latifa! The 'x' has an 'sh' sound. 'xx' is obviously a slightly longer 'sh' sound than 'x'. Perhaps the most difficult maltese words to pronounce are those with 'q'. Like 'qamar' (moon). That is not said, 'kamar' or simply 'amar'. I can't describe the sound.. Its not a sound that originates in the mouth with the movement and position of the tongue, but rather a sound that originates at the back of the throat !! Um, I don't know if you get what I want to say.

Thanks for the links

Kharmine · 09-23-2007, 07:36 PM

This is why I like the study of language even if I don't become fluent -- you learn so much about the people and culture when you understand why things are said or written the way they are!

pearl · 09-23-2007, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cathy

Hi Pearl,

Interesting what you say about both learning Turkish and also your native language being Maltese. And I think you said it was the only one using Latin characters.

I was just reading about the history of Turkish. During the Ottoman period (1299-1922) the region spoke a combination of Persian, Arabic, and Turkish and wrote in Arabic characters. Then in 1927-28, Ataturk "purified" the language by eliminating all Arabic and Persian loan words and changing the written language to the Latin alphabet--but adding a lot of diacritical marks. All the old poetry and literature was "translated" from Ottoman Turkish to modern Turkish.

Cathy

Hi Cathy! It is true what you say about the turkish language. Ataturk cleansed the old turkish language and did away with the arabic script. Incidentally, there was a period in maltese history, albeit a very short one, when maltese was written in the arabic script.

Turkish grammar has nothing to do with arabic and neither is it similar to maltese in any way. During my turkish course, however, I did come across a couple of words which turkish and maltese have in common because of the arabic influence. For example, 'world' is 'dunya' in turkish and 'dinja' in maltese.

Modern day maltese remains a semitic language written in the latin alphabet.

pearl · 09-23-2007, 08:08 PM

Cathy & Latifa,

Here's another like re maltese language:

Maltese language, alphabet and pronunciation

Note that there is no recommended 'sound' for the pronounciation of the 'q'. And also, in the sample text, where you can listen to a short sentence being read in maltese, the person reading is definitely not maltese, however, the pronounciation is good except for the word , 'moghnija'.

gisela · 09-25-2007, 02:50 PM

I just downloaded "before you know it" arabic course. Thanks Suhad, for telling about it and for the inspiration!

Latifa · 09-25-2007, 06:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pearl

You're on the right track Latifa! The 'x' has an 'sh' sound. 'xx' is obviously a slightly longer 'sh' sound than 'x'. Perhaps the most difficult maltese words to pronounce are those with 'q'. Like 'qamar' (moon). That is not said, 'kamar' or simply 'amar'. I can't describe the sound.. Its not a sound that originates in the mouth with the movement and position of the tongue, but rather a sound that originates at the back of the throat !! Um, I don't know if you get what I want to say.

Thanks for the links

That's where the Arabic qaf is pronounced -- by those Arabic dialects that chhose to pronounce it!

The Egyptians don't bother, and the Sa'idis make it a hard "G".

Kharmine · 10-02-2007, 02:28 AM

was this evening. Eight students, two who appear to be other than American but I don't know from where yet. The woman I sit next to is the wife of one of my graduate school professors and a neighbor!

I am wondering if I'll be able to wade through this well enough for it to be worth the money and effort. The teacher is already taking us through the Arabic alphabet and there are two sounds I know I can't make -- a rolled r and a guttural aspiration as if clearing the throat. Well, one class at a time!

I've learned this much -- standard Arabic is the one is used most generally. Even people from the same Middle Eastern country but speaking different dialects will use standard Arabic to speak to each other. It is the one used most by news organizations and in books. So, it'll be useful wherever I take it!

If I can get a good enough grasp on the basics.

09-23-2007, 01:46 PM	#22 (permalink)
Aisha Azar V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Pacific Northwest USA Posts: 4,458	Translation, etc. Dear Mariyam, I am often the recipient of the kindness of people who are willing to tell me what the Arabic is in English. What I find is that the goal is to tell me the IDEA behind what is being said, because the literal translation might not make sense in English, or because there is no exact interpretation for the feeling or meaning behind the words, because it is so culturally or environmentally tied to the people who speak the language in that dialect, with those colloquialisms. For example, Arabs say they have "Wasta". ( I have also heard this called "Fittimin Wow" or Vitamin W in English!) The word when translated means "person of influence", but in many ways it means much more than that because this person could have so much input and influence in an outcome. It is more than saying "I know somebody who could help", like here. Another example; the Eskimo people of Northwestern part of the world have many, many words for snow. Their lives are dependent on understanding different kinds of snow, so if one were to translate or interpret exact meanings of snow within the Eskimo cultures and environments, they would have to have a far deeper understanding of snow than the average guy in the lower 48 States or in the rest of Canada or Russia have. I think I understand where you are going with the "interpretor versus translator" concept, and I think it is very valid to this discussion. Regards, A'isha Last edited by Aisha Azar; 09-23-2007 at 07:52 PM.

09-23-2007, 07:36 PM	#25 (permalink)
Kharmine V.I.P. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Foot of the Rocky Mountains Posts: 1,248	This is why I like the study of language even if I don't become fluent -- you learn so much about the people and culture when you understand why things are said or written the way they are! __________________ What if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about?

09-23-2007, 08:08 PM	#27 (permalink)
pearl Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Essen, Germany Posts: 40	Cathy & Latifa, Here's another like re maltese language: Maltese language, alphabet and pronunciation Note that there is no recommended 'sound' for the pronounciation of the 'q'. And also, in the sample text, where you can listen to a short sentence being read in maltese, the person reading is definitely not maltese, however, the pronounciation is good except for the word , 'moghnija'. Last edited by pearl; 09-23-2007 at 08:11 PM.

09-25-2007, 02:50 PM	#28 (permalink)
gisela Moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Denmark Posts: 928	I just downloaded "before you know it" arabic course. Thanks Suhad, for telling about it and for the inspiration! __________________ You need chaos in your soul to create a dancing star-nietzsche

10-02-2007, 02:28 AM	#30 (permalink)
Kharmine V.I.P. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Foot of the Rocky Mountains Posts: 1,248	My first Arabic class... was this evening. Eight students, two who appear to be other than American but I don't know from where yet. The woman I sit next to is the wife of one of my graduate school professors and a neighbor! I am wondering if I'll be able to wade through this well enough for it to be worth the money and effort. The teacher is already taking us through the Arabic alphabet and there are two sounds I know I can't make -- a rolled r and a guttural aspiration as if clearing the throat. Well, one class at a time! I've learned this much -- standard Arabic is the one is used most generally. Even people from the same Middle Eastern country but speaking different dialects will use standard Arabic to speak to each other. It is the one used most by news organizations and in books. So, it'll be useful wherever I take it! If I can get a good enough grasp on the basics. __________________ What if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about?