Learning Arabic - Page 2

Latifa · 09-20-2007, 08:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pearl

Do you know anyone from Malta Latifa?

My husband, who is German, did actually find a small book about Maltese. Its a little grammer book with some notes about the structure of the language. He hasn't learned much from it though!

Given the connection to arabic of the maltese language, I am unable to understand complete sentences in arabic, whether spoken or (much less) written. I did once try to communicate with some arab children who live close by by speaking to them in maltese. The could not understand except when I asked them their names and said, 'my name is..'

I don't know anyone from Malta -- I'm just fascinated by all the permutations of Arabic. I just was reading the Wikipedia entry about Maltese and it had a link to the Maltese-language Wiki. I could actually figure some of it out, which was great fun! I'm sure the spoken language would completely confuse me, though. (I'm much better with MSA, grammar and reading Arabic, while my hubby is tons better at speaking and dialects.)

Tell me about your background, Pearl, if you don't mind. You're the first Maltese-speaker I've encountered!

pearl · 09-20-2007, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Latifa

I don't know anyone from Malta -- I'm just fascinated by all the permutations of Arabic. I just was reading the Wikipedia entry about Maltese and it had a link to the Maltese-language Wiki. I could actually figure some of it out, which was great fun! I'm sure the spoken language would completely confuse me, though. (I'm much better with MSA, grammar and reading Arabic, while my hubby is tons better at speaking and dialects.)

Tell me about your background, Pearl, if you don't mind. You're the first Maltese-speaker I've encountered!

Maltese-language Wiki? Wow! Didn't know there was one

Nawguralek (I congratulate you) talli rnexxielek (that you managed) tifhem (to understand) xi haga (something) fuq l-istruttura (about the structure) tal-lingwa maltija (of the maltese language) daqshekk malajr (so quickly)! Definitely better than my hubby's efforts!!

Latifa · 09-20-2007, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pearl

Maltese-language Wiki? Wow! Didn't know there was one

Nawguralek (I congratulate you) talli rnexxielek (that you managed) tifhem (to understand) xi haga (something) fuq l-istruttura (about the structure) tal-lingwa maltija (of the maltese language) daqshekk malajr (so quickly)! Definitely better than my hubby's efforts!!

Ooh! This is fun, seeing where some of the words come from. Is the "x" in rnexxielek and xi haga pronounced like an sh sound? It looks like these words are related to Arabic words/expressions I know. Some of the words, however, could be Martian instead of Maltese.

Here's the Maltese Wiki link:

Paġna prinċipali - Wikipedija

and the original Wiki page on the Maltese language that led me there:

Maltese language - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Very interesting stuff -- at least to a languge geek like me. Sorry to hijack the Arabic thread, though.

Kharmine · 09-20-2007, 09:45 PM

I'm remembering something my Hispanic mother always denied -- there is some Arabic influence in old Spanish, the kind she was brought up to speak. Has to do with the Arabic conquest of much of Spain, particularly in Andalucia.

For instance, the traditional Spanish shout of "Ole!" I've heard is supposed to be a corruption of "Wallah!" an Arabic exclamation. I'm not sure that it isn't more akin to the French "Allez!" but I don't know enough yet to say for sure.

At any rate, the Spanish are not fond of recalling the Arabic version of the good old days hence my mother's flat denial, I suppose. Even though there is certainly some Arabic influence in some of the Spanish dances, architecture, music, etc...

See, you never know what you'll find when you start nosing around another language!

Shanazel · 09-21-2007, 02:41 AM

I knew about Malta and Maltese cats, but I didn't know it had its own language. Please don't ask what I thought was spoken in Malta- I have revealed sufficient ignorance for now.

I am in awe of people who learn not only one foreign language but several. I can manage in Spanish if people speak verrrry slooowly and don't mind if I only use present tense. I did much better as a child living on the border of Mexico, but I moved north and haven't used it much for thirty years.

I made a stab at learning Irish Gaelic a time or two, but decided I'd have to be dead in order to have enough time to get even a basic grip on it.

Latifa · 09-21-2007, 03:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kharmine

I'm remembering something my Hispanic mother always denied -- there is some Arabic influence in old Spanish, the kind she was brought up to speak. Has to do with the Arabic conquest of much of Spain, particularly in Andalucia.

For instance, the traditional Spanish shout of "Ole!" I've heard is supposed to be a corruption of "Wallah!" an Arabic exclamation. I'm not sure that it isn't more akin to the French "Allez!" but I don't know enough yet to say for sure.

At any rate, the Spanish are not fond of recalling the Arabic version of the good old days hence my mother's flat denial, I suppose. Even though there is certainly some Arabic influence in some of the Spanish dances, architecture, music, etc...

See, you never know what you'll find when you start nosing around another language!

Kharmine, I know there's some Spanish sensitivity about the Arabic influence. One of my Georgetown profs was fond of saying "The Arabs were in Spain longer than the Spanish were." But I know that at one time (I'm a little fuzzy on the details right now) Spanish history books didn't even mention Arab occupation or the Reconquista.

Mariyam · 09-21-2007, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Suhad

I have extra motivation -- where I work we see Arabic speakers every shift I work, and there are no on staff translators. Harry, one of the Spanish translators, is half Egyptian and he said that if I were to learn Arabic and take a certification test the hospital would probably give me an extra pay for being a translator. Now the money is cool, but being able to speak with my patients would be better.

That's not translation, that's interpretation

These two professions are (too) often confused! (sorry - I'm a translator myself and I couldn't help it but point it out

)

But nonetheless this would be a great opportunity for you! I know how rewarding it is to be able to speak the language of your patients!

Suhad · 09-21-2007, 03:47 PM

About the Spanish/Arabic connection: depending on which source you read, up to 30% of Spanish words derive from Arabic. And now that I have embarked on this language odessy, I can definitely see the correlation! I learned Classical Spanish many years ago; I found that the Mexican dialect is definitely different but was reasonably fluent; then we moved to Northern Arizona and I haven't used it in about 10 years. My Spanish is getting better too just from working in the ER, about 50% of our patients are Hispanic and don't speak English.

I don't know why Spaniards would deny that, unless the whole religion and conquest thing still offends them.

Shanazel · 09-21-2007, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mariyam

That's not translation, that's interpretation

These two professions are (too) often confused! (sorry - I'm a translator myself and I couldn't help it but point it out

)!

Is translation literary and interpretation oral? Please explain the difference to the curious among us.

Kharmine · 09-21-2007, 05:29 PM

Suhad and Latifa, yes, it's about sensitivity to the Arab conquest that had Christians as second-class citizens in Spain for quite a long time.

The dictator General Francisco Franco, who ruled from the mid-1930s to his death in 1975, was especially fanatical about Spanish "nationalism" and was rigid about what was allowed in Spanish textbooks. He fought against Arab "insurrection" in Morocco so I doubt he was an Arab sympathizer. That influence is still felt.

It's been awhile since I read about Spanish history so if I remember correctly, Muslims are not supposed to have other Muslims as slaves, nor tax their bretheran, which left the non-Muslim population for forced labor and additional revenue, especially in the area they called Al-Andalucia, southern Spain.

At first, the Arab conquerors treated Jews and Christians with respect, as fellow "peoples of the Book." Jews had better treatment, overall than under Christian rulers, but it was considered a "Golden Age" when these three religions coexisted more or less harmoniously, and much wonderful art was created.

Later Arab rulers became more fanatic and harsh toward nonbelievers and those who were less dogmatic within their own faith. I think this helped contribute to the downfall of Arabic rule, that and the rising power of Christian leaders outside the immediate region.

(I've heard Osama bin Ladin waxing nostalgic about "Al-Andalucia" and claiming that someday Muslim rule will return to southern Spain. I doubt he means the more tolerant rule of the "Golden Age.")

When Isabella and Ferdinand finally won control in the 16th century, they decreed that Jews and Muslims must either convert or leave the country (this wasn't only a religious, but a political issue). This resulted in the diaspora of the Sephardic Jews, and why you stil hear some Spanish influence in the music of some North African Muslim musicians.

Some authors think there is a strong Semitic strain in the current Spanish gypsy population because it became a place of refuge for these nonChristians.

BTW, "Spanish" as we know it, is really only one of the languages of Spain. It largely derives from old Castilian, and was chosen to be the official dialect. They speak quite different languages in Galicia (which is quite Celtic), Catalonia and Basque, and I think it's a rather different dialect in Andalucia, too.

My mother speaks a quaint form of Castilian -- I call it "quaint" because it basically stayed preserved in New Mexico where there were settlements of Spanish colonialists, and is unlike modern Castilian spoken in Spain today. And, yes, she has the trademark Castilian lisp. I have a faint trace of it only because I grew up with her, but I don't speak much Spanish in general.

09-20-2007, 09:45 PM	#14 (permalink)
Kharmine V.I.P. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Foot of the Rocky Mountains Posts: 1,248	I'm remembering something my Hispanic mother always denied -- there is some Arabic influence in old Spanish, the kind she was brought up to speak. Has to do with the Arabic conquest of much of Spain, particularly in Andalucia. For instance, the traditional Spanish shout of "Ole!" I've heard is supposed to be a corruption of "Wallah!" an Arabic exclamation. I'm not sure that it isn't more akin to the French "Allez!" but I don't know enough yet to say for sure. At any rate, the Spanish are not fond of recalling the Arabic version of the good old days hence my mother's flat denial, I suppose. Even though there is certainly some Arabic influence in some of the Spanish dances, architecture, music, etc... See, you never know what you'll find when you start nosing around another language! __________________ What if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about? Last edited by Kharmine; 09-20-2007 at 09:47 PM.

09-21-2007, 05:29 PM	#20 (permalink)
Kharmine V.I.P. Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Foot of the Rocky Mountains Posts: 1,248	Suhad and Latifa, yes, it's about sensitivity to the Arab conquest that had Christians as second-class citizens in Spain for quite a long time. The dictator General Francisco Franco, who ruled from the mid-1930s to his death in 1975, was especially fanatical about Spanish "nationalism" and was rigid about what was allowed in Spanish textbooks. He fought against Arab "insurrection" in Morocco so I doubt he was an Arab sympathizer. That influence is still felt. It's been awhile since I read about Spanish history so if I remember correctly, Muslims are not supposed to have other Muslims as slaves, nor tax their bretheran, which left the non-Muslim population for forced labor and additional revenue, especially in the area they called Al-Andalucia, southern Spain. At first, the Arab conquerors treated Jews and Christians with respect, as fellow "peoples of the Book." Jews had better treatment, overall than under Christian rulers, but it was considered a "Golden Age" when these three religions coexisted more or less harmoniously, and much wonderful art was created. Later Arab rulers became more fanatic and harsh toward nonbelievers and those who were less dogmatic within their own faith. I think this helped contribute to the downfall of Arabic rule, that and the rising power of Christian leaders outside the immediate region. (I've heard Osama bin Ladin waxing nostalgic about "Al-Andalucia" and claiming that someday Muslim rule will return to southern Spain. I doubt he means the more tolerant rule of the "Golden Age.") When Isabella and Ferdinand finally won control in the 16th century, they decreed that Jews and Muslims must either convert or leave the country (this wasn't only a religious, but a political issue). This resulted in the diaspora of the Sephardic Jews, and why you stil hear some Spanish influence in the music of some North African Muslim musicians. Some authors think there is a strong Semitic strain in the current Spanish gypsy population because it became a place of refuge for these nonChristians. BTW, "Spanish" as we know it, is really only one of the languages of Spain. It largely derives from old Castilian, and was chosen to be the official dialect. They speak quite different languages in Galicia (which is quite Celtic), Catalonia and Basque, and I think it's a rather different dialect in Andalucia, too. My mother speaks a quaint form of Castilian -- I call it "quaint" because it basically stayed preserved in New Mexico where there were settlements of Spanish colonialists, and is unlike modern Castilian spoken in Spain today. And, yes, she has the trademark Castilian lisp. I have a faint trace of it only because I grew up with her, but I don't speak much Spanish in general. __________________ What if the hokey pokey is really what it's all about? Last edited by Kharmine; 09-21-2007 at 05:39 PM.

09-21-2007, 02:41 AM	#15 (permalink)
Shanazel Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Rocky Mountains USA Posts: 4,563	I knew about Malta and Maltese cats, but I didn't know it had its own language. Please don't ask what I thought was spoken in Malta- I have revealed sufficient ignorance for now. I am in awe of people who learn not only one foreign language but several. I can manage in Spanish if people speak verrrry slooowly and don't mind if I only use present tense. I did much better as a child living on the border of Mexico, but I moved north and haven't used it much for thirty years. I made a stab at learning Irish Gaelic a time or two, but decided I'd have to be dead in order to have enough time to get even a basic grip on it.

09-21-2007, 03:47 PM	#18 (permalink)
Suhad Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 322	About the Spanish/Arabic connection: depending on which source you read, up to 30% of Spanish words derive from Arabic. And now that I have embarked on this language odessy, I can definitely see the correlation! I learned Classical Spanish many years ago; I found that the Mexican dialect is definitely different but was reasonably fluent; then we moved to Northern Arizona and I haven't used it in about 10 years. My Spanish is getting better too just from working in the ER, about 50% of our patients are Hispanic and don't speak English. I don't know why Spaniards would deny that, unless the whole religion and conquest thing still offends them.