Greek Chifteteli - Page 2

sedoniaraqs · 02-02-2007, 05:33 AM

Chryssanthi: I'm confused now. I understand that "chiftitelli" refers to a dance, and is also used for a particular rhythm, but I'm wondering if its the same rhythm that is called chiftitelli on music CDs and in the U.S. or (wada kabhir in arabic? -- the two-toned one played with many taqsim) -- this rhythm isn't 6/8. I've only seen it notated by Middle Eastern musicians as 8/4 -- it has a very strong 8 beat structure.

the dancer in this clip is using music with what we call the chiftitelli rhythm.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4UUM5zY3Bw

Sedonia

Quote:

Originally Posted by chryssanthi sahar

Dear Samsied.

Let's clear the misunderstandings: There are two things called "Chifteteli": One is the Turkish and Greek belly dance (whereas second is actually called "Tsifteteli", because we don't have the sound "ch" in Greek, except in some dialects), the other is the 6/8 Arabian rhythm Taksim, which some times is called also Chifteteli. Probably because it is used a lot for the Turkish Chifteteli, but in lot quicker version than for the Arabian Taksim parts of a musical routine.
The Turkish Chifteteli usually has the 6/8 rhythm Chifteteli and/or 4/4 rhythms, mostly Maqsoum. The Greek Chifteteli has in most cases 4/4 rhythms also mostly Maqsoum and in rare cases the 6/8 Chifteteli rhythm (which in this case is played slow, like in the Arabian music). The word Chifteteli is Turkish and means "two strings". We Greeks have the Turkish name, because, as you read in my article , Chifteteli was brought to modern Greece through the expatriate Greeks of Smyrna.
As about the songs you are talking about: the first is indeed a Greek Tsifteteli with a very quick 4/4 Maqsoum rhythm. The second is a Turkish Chifteteli with also a 4/4 rhythm (Maria sorry, this song is definitely Turkish and not Greek

) and the third song is obviously a fusion with an Arabian 6/8 Chifteteli or Taksim rhythm. I hope you are less confused about the subject now

Happy dancing

Yasmine Bint Al Nubia · 02-02-2007, 06:06 AM

Hail the Greek Goddesses! I like Sedonia, have learned the Turkish rhythm chifteteli is an 8/4 beat. Here in the States it is usually played slowly. During the cabaret shows of the 60's and 70's, the chifteteli rhythm was part of the taqsim portion of the dancer's show. Now I've watched Chryssanthi's clip and I'm trying to understand the difference.
InChryssanthi's article tsifteteli is the Greek form of bellydance, but does the dance use different rhythms? Would you say that tsifeteli, is a performance style dance or a dance seen by the everyday folk? In the clip seonia poted, is the rhythm and dnace style most American dance students were most familiar with.
Yasmine

chryssanthi sahar · 02-02-2007, 03:15 PM

Hi girls.

I have to apologize for the confusion I created as about the Arabian Chifteteli rhythm

. Of course it is not 6/8 but 8/4. I probably had a black out, when I was writing that posting.
So, Arabian Chifteteli: slow 8/4 rhythm, mainly used bei Taksims (instrument solos, therefore also the name "Taksim").
Greek Tsifteteli: most usually 4/4 Maqsoum rhythm, in some cases Baladi (Masmoudi saghir) rhythm, in seldom cases 8/4 Chifteteli (which is used almost only as intro, at the beginning of a song) and in even more seldom cases Saidi (only at modern Tsifteteli songs, usually if the song is a "cover" from a modern Arabian song).
The song I'm dancing on the clip is one of the oldest Greek Tsifteteli songs, first Rembetiko generation so to say. That's why it is sung partially in Turkish (the refrain), because the Greeks who came from Smyrna (today Izmir) were either bilingual or they even spoke only Turkish. I'll tell more to the song on the youtube forum.

sedoniaraqs · 02-02-2007, 05:00 PM

Dear Maria Aya and Chryssanthi:

Thank you so much for all of this information on chiftitelli the dance and chiftitelli the music. I have another question: Are there any rules for Turkish and Greek music about which pieces should only be used for chiftitelli the folk dance, and which pieces have the same rhythm but can be used for oriental?

Sorry if this is a dumb questions -- I mostly know about Arabic music.

Sedonia

chryssanthi sahar · 02-03-2007, 02:58 AM

I don't know about the Turkish music, but as about the Greek Tsifteteli music, theoretically there are no rules about what style of belly dance you should dance with it. It just has to harmonize with the music. Practically though, it is safer for a non-Greek to dance Oriental dance rather with new, modern Tsifteteli songs, which are very similar with the Arabian Pop Baladi songs. If you can dance with Pop Baladi (modern Arabian songs), you can also dance the same stuff with modern Tsifteteli. It is better not to dance Oriental with the old Tsifteteli songs, if you haven't dealt explicitly with them, because they are lot more "Greek" than the new Tsifteteli songs and maybe what you would dance with such a song would look strange to a Greek. For Greeks it is different, since they grow up with this music, they have the right feeling for it, so they are more free to dance something different than the traditional Tsifteteli folk dance also with the old songs. I dance sometimes my Greek-Arabian fusion (Tsifteteli Oriental, which I mainly dance with modern T-songs) also with old songs, as long as it suits the music.

Kiraze · 02-03-2007, 06:39 AM

I think that what Crysshanti said about Greek tsifteteli music is valid also with Turkish ciftetelli. Usually ciftetelli is danced in Turkey with "oriental movements" as a solo dance whether it was between folk dances as a improvisation or just casual dancing at parties, discos etc.

chryssanthi sahar · 02-03-2007, 04:52 PM

Since Greek Tsifteteli had been brought to Greece by the Greeks of Smyrna, this means from Turkey, it is almost the same like the traditional Turkish Chifteteli, especially when danced as a folklore/social dance. The Tsifteteli of today is changing, because of stronger Arabian and Western influences (Shakira for example. You'll see more young girls dancing like Shakira than dancing traditional Tsifteteli in the bouzoukia clubs today). But also in Turkey belly dance is changing. That's why I believe that it is no problem to dance Oriental dance with modern Greek and modern Turkish belly dance music, but it is a problem to do so with traditional belly dance music of both countries (I mean for foreigners).

samsied · 02-05-2007, 12:36 AM

Thank you for posting the videoclip Chryssanthi! You dancing is really lovely and it is helpful to see an example. --S

chryssanthi sahar · 02-05-2007, 03:20 AM

You are welcome Samsied

chryssanthi sahar · 02-12-2007, 12:20 AM

Hi folks.

Yesterday I just found out something new about the Greek Tsifteteli, which I didn't know until now. We not only have 4/4 and more seldom 8/4 rhythms in Greek Tsifteteli music, but also 2/4 Ayub and Malfouf rhythms. Especially some older Tsifteteli songs have those rhythms. I found out accidentally, because my Arabian drummer (who is also one of my best friends) loves Greek music. So yesterday (we had again an Arabian night with live music) he was asking me after our performance to translate the words of some Greek songs he had on a tape, for him. He loves those songs, so he wanted to know the words (well, he also always translates the words from the Arabian songs that I love, for me). Some of those songs were older Tsifteteli songs. I was not sure about the rhythm they had though, so I was asking him, if he can recognize what rhythm it is. So he recognized one as Malfouf, another as Ayub. Most of the others were Maqsoum, which is also the most common. So I'm happy that I learned something new. It is very convenient to have Arabian musicians as friends

02-02-2007, 06:06 AM	#12 (permalink)
Yasmine Bint Al Nubia V.I.P. Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Akron, Ohio Posts: 1,129	Hail the Greek Goddesses! I like Sedonia, have learned the Turkish rhythm chifteteli is an 8/4 beat. Here in the States it is usually played slowly. During the cabaret shows of the 60's and 70's, the chifteteli rhythm was part of the taqsim portion of the dancer's show. Now I've watched Chryssanthi's clip and I'm trying to understand the difference. InChryssanthi's article tsifteteli is the Greek form of bellydance, but does the dance use different rhythms? Would you say that tsifeteli, is a performance style dance or a dance seen by the everyday folk? In the clip seonia poted, is the rhythm and dnace style most American dance students were most familiar with. Yasmine __________________ www.visionsofthenile.com

02-02-2007, 03:15 PM	#13 (permalink)
chryssanthi sahar Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 1,482	Hi girls. I have to apologize for the confusion I created as about the Arabian Chifteteli rhythm . Of course it is not 6/8 but 8/4. I probably had a black out, when I was writing that posting. So, Arabian Chifteteli: slow 8/4 rhythm, mainly used bei Taksims (instrument solos, therefore also the name "Taksim"). Greek Tsifteteli: most usually 4/4 Maqsoum rhythm, in some cases Baladi (Masmoudi saghir) rhythm, in seldom cases 8/4 Chifteteli (which is used almost only as intro, at the beginning of a song) and in even more seldom cases Saidi (only at modern Tsifteteli songs, usually if the song is a "cover" from a modern Arabian song). The song I'm dancing on the clip is one of the oldest Greek Tsifteteli songs, first Rembetiko generation so to say. That's why it is sung partially in Turkish (the refrain), because the Greeks who came from Smyrna (today Izmir) were either bilingual or they even spoke only Turkish. I'll tell more to the song on the youtube forum. __________________ Oriental dancer and instructor of Greek origin, living in Germany www.chryssanthi.com

02-03-2007, 02:58 AM	#15 (permalink)
chryssanthi sahar Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 1,482	I don't know about the Turkish music, but as about the Greek Tsifteteli music, theoretically there are no rules about what style of belly dance you should dance with it. It just has to harmonize with the music. Practically though, it is safer for a non-Greek to dance Oriental dance rather with new, modern Tsifteteli songs, which are very similar with the Arabian Pop Baladi songs. If you can dance with Pop Baladi (modern Arabian songs), you can also dance the same stuff with modern Tsifteteli. It is better not to dance Oriental with the old Tsifteteli songs, if you haven't dealt explicitly with them, because they are lot more "Greek" than the new Tsifteteli songs and maybe what you would dance with such a song would look strange to a Greek. For Greeks it is different, since they grow up with this music, they have the right feeling for it, so they are more free to dance something different than the traditional Tsifteteli folk dance also with the old songs. I dance sometimes my Greek-Arabian fusion (Tsifteteli Oriental, which I mainly dance with modern T-songs) also with old songs, as long as it suits the music. __________________ Oriental dancer and instructor of Greek origin, living in Germany www.chryssanthi.com

02-03-2007, 04:52 PM	#17 (permalink)
chryssanthi sahar Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 1,482	Since Greek Tsifteteli had been brought to Greece by the Greeks of Smyrna, this means from Turkey, it is almost the same like the traditional Turkish Chifteteli, especially when danced as a folklore/social dance. The Tsifteteli of today is changing, because of stronger Arabian and Western influences (Shakira for example. You'll see more young girls dancing like Shakira than dancing traditional Tsifteteli in the bouzoukia clubs today). But also in Turkey belly dance is changing. That's why I believe that it is no problem to dance Oriental dance with modern Greek and modern Turkish belly dance music, but it is a problem to do so with traditional belly dance music of both countries (I mean for foreigners). __________________ Oriental dancer and instructor of Greek origin, living in Germany www.chryssanthi.com

02-05-2007, 03:20 AM	#19 (permalink)
chryssanthi sahar Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 1,482	You are welcome Samsied __________________ Oriental dancer and instructor of Greek origin, living in Germany www.chryssanthi.com

02-02-2007, 05:00 PM	#14 (permalink)
sedoniaraqs Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: cultural wasteland of the midwestern US Posts: 574	Dear Maria Aya and Chryssanthi: Thank you so much for all of this information on chiftitelli the dance and chiftitelli the music. I have another question: Are there any rules for Turkish and Greek music about which pieces should only be used for chiftitelli the folk dance, and which pieces have the same rhythm but can be used for oriental? Sorry if this is a dumb questions -- I mostly know about Arabic music. Sedonia

02-03-2007, 06:39 AM	#16 (permalink)
Kiraze Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Singapore Posts: 389	I think that what Crysshanti said about Greek tsifteteli music is valid also with Turkish ciftetelli. Usually ciftetelli is danced in Turkey with "oriental movements" as a solo dance whether it was between folk dances as a improvisation or just casual dancing at parties, discos etc.

02-05-2007, 12:36 AM	#18 (permalink)
samsied Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Posts: 120	Thank you for posting the videoclip Chryssanthi! You dancing is really lovely and it is helpful to see an example. --S

02-12-2007, 12:20 AM	#20 (permalink)
chryssanthi sahar Moderator Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Heidelberg, Germany Posts: 1,482	Hi folks. Yesterday I just found out something new about the Greek Tsifteteli, which I didn't know until now. We not only have 4/4 and more seldom 8/4 rhythms in Greek Tsifteteli music, but also 2/4 Ayub and Malfouf rhythms. Especially some older Tsifteteli songs have those rhythms. I found out accidentally, because my Arabian drummer (who is also one of my best friends) loves Greek music. So yesterday (we had again an Arabian night with live music) he was asking me after our performance to translate the words of some Greek songs he had on a tape, for him. He loves those songs, so he wanted to know the words (well, he also always translates the words from the Arabian songs that I love, for me). Some of those songs were older Tsifteteli songs. I was not sure about the rhythm they had though, so I was asking him, if he can recognize what rhythm it is. So he recognized one as Malfouf, another as Ayub. Most of the others were Maqsoum, which is also the most common. So I'm happy that I learned something new. It is very convenient to have Arabian musicians as friends __________________ Oriental dancer and instructor of Greek origin, living in Germany www.chryssanthi.com